lyssie | (no subject)

yet another person who must wrap herself in Charmin before leaving the house.

And a foil hat to combat the mind-control waves.

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Bwahahaha! :D

I love teh Internet.

I love your icon!
Sandy

Free meanie stickers for everybody!

YAY!

Y'know, I'm reminded. I should make Bitch Patrol icons...

Please. *puppy-dogs*

Please......I want one, too.

Am I alone in wanting to write Jaka a personal email where I ask him what the fuck his deal is?

Don't engage with the scary-crazy people - it only leads to trouble. *is skeered* Having said that, if you do write to him and he does reply, forward me a copy?

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*confused and baffled*

Awww. Did you break someone's fragile little mind?

Sadly, no. *pouts* I want to break people's minds...

'nos commented on the same thing (http://www.livejournal.com/users/nostalgia_lj/772535.html) - I gave her a label (http://www.livejournal.com/users/nostalgia_lj/772535.html?thread=9006007#t9006007) she might find useful to silence the critics. Would you like a similar one for your own use?

*laughs*

I think I'm going to use the warnings

jacksrubberduck started, including the monkeys. ;)

Offer to tell them the endings of all the movies they're going to go see, so they can avoid seeing the ones with bad endings. >:)

see, that's how I see the whole ~~wank~~ argument. nobody wants to give away their ending. It rather defeats the point of reading.

*facepalm*

That reminds me all too well of a couple of fandoms I've been in, where they'll shitlist you for life if you don't give them a happy glowy ending.

Ever just want to respond "welcome to reality"? *sighs*

fooling people into reading something
Nope, still doesn't make sense.

Ok I'm new here but I do have to chime in ::Hates haveing to go against the crowd::

I can see where a warning is a good thing, even a mandantory thing... now don't get me wrong I ♥ angst - hell I writeangst... but there are some out there who can't handel depressing fics.

My mom won't go watch a movie where someone or something dies. Why? Because if she does she will litterly cry for hours... a warning for people like her is just a kindness - an act of common curtosey to those too sensative to handel such things.

It's also a good idea to add warnings because well people like me exist. You know people with clincial diagnosis that include depression. I read something in the wrong mood and it could be just the thing I need to push me from blue to morose. So, a fair warning let's me know to bookmark and go back when I feel stronger.

Just giveing voice to the other side of the coin.

I still think that doesn't mean the world must be MADE SAFE OMG!

Fic may be depressing. That said, no one is forcing anyone to read it. Seriously.

It's something you participate in at your own risk. I mean, bad punctuation and stupid plots make me homicidal, and I don't see anyone offering to warn for their insipidness.

No, nobody is forcing anyone to read anything - however, without those warnings you don't have the option of steering away from depressing fics either.

As far as makeing the world safe, so sue me I belive in takeing care of each other and showing basic human consideratin to my fellow man.

Bad plots, and rotten grammer are something that you can pick up on within the first paragraph. It's not like it's something that you're not going to see coming beyond the first two minutes (give or take). Unlike a sucker punch ending, which takes you by surprise.

You know what?

The world is not a sanitized, safe place.

Most people are not writing their fic *for* the readers anyway. They're writing it for themselves. They don't owe you a damned thing. Like several people have pointed out on similar threads, if this were a book, you'd be lucky to get a summery of what the story was even about.

Get over it or stop reading. That's all the advice I've got to offer. I'm pretty sure no one's gonna start giving away the whole plot to their fics because a few people whine.

Oh, and that Suckerpunch ending? The one that takes you by surprise?

Guess why it does that?

BECAUSE THAT'S THE ENTIER FUCKING POINT. Get over it.

Word.

*friends you, hopes that is all right*

*snickers* I don't post much, but I rant well.

It's the sense of expectation and entitlement that has developed among readers that pisses me off about the topic. Many readers now see that it is the writers' responsibility to protect them from things they do not want, and to make their lives more convenient in avoiding what they don't want and finding what they do want.

No, that isn't my responsibility. My job is not to protect the reader. It isn't even so much an issue of consideration. It's a question of accepting one's own responsibility for one's own choices. And pawning that responsibility off on the writer comes across as pretty damn discourteous. I get that side, I get their issue. I just don't see how it is my problem.

And implying that a fic writer is responsible to add a warning that a story is depressing to protect a reader because they might be clinically depressed or because their fic might be a mood trigger? That's just ridiculous. That is putting an unbelievably out-of-line expectation on a writer, and frankly, comes across as a guilt trip.

And too, for every reader out there who wants to be warned about potentially sensitive topics (i.e. character deaths, sad endings, pairings not getting together), there's another reader who doens't want to be warned for it. Why does the sensitive reader have more rights than the reader who doesn't want to be spoiled or warned?

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And, see, I just... I don't get that. At all. If fic makes you sad, go read something else, or don't read it at all.

It just flabbergasts me, that I'm supposed to pussy-foot around just because it might make someone depressed.

Oh, well. I never said I wanted to be the popular girl. ;)

Why is it pussy footing around to add one sentence to your header? "Warning angst ahead" three little words...

And just because some fic makes you sad, some of the time does not mean you shouldn't read fic. I mean that would be like saying because I'm not always in the mood for sex - I should never have it...

Do you make this demand in other aspects of your life? Do you check the ending of every book, every TV episode, every movie? Do you write to book publishers, movie and television studios and tell them they need to give proper warning because some people don't like not-happy endings?

To turn your argument around, just because some readers overreact to a fic, some of the time, does not mean all writers need to label all of their stories all of the time.

Please forgive me for intruding.

I had hoped to speak to those willing to give some consideration to another's opinion. I had hoped to have an honest, open and intelligent discussin about a subject that has two very valid sides. However it seems that what I got is nothing more then those who are too wrapped up in their own way of thinking to even hear, much less truly consider another point of view.

I wanted to know if I would be happy here - I have my answer.

I spoke of careing gently for one another and I was met with attacks and accusations of wekaness.

I spoke of the minor amounts of time that it would take to proffer a warning and was told that movies and books do not offer such things. (Which is really strange since I could swear that's what that little R, PG and such and the tiny print that explained why a movie received the rateing it did was all about fair warning.) and if I want warnings as to books I can always check out Amazon for reveiws.

There is not room here for one who doesn't think exactly like all the others here, so I will leave you to one another and search for more open minded pastures.

I bid you good night.

Movies have a rating; there is no elaboration regarding why that rating was assigned. TV shows have ratings, but again, they are very general: sexuality; language; violence. Nothing about angst or character death or sadness.

We are merely pointing out that you are asking writers of fanfic to adhere to a different standard from other major forms of entertainment, and many writers feel that is unwarranted and possibly counterproductive to their goals as writers.

If you rely on Amazon reviews to find out about books, then why not rely on reader reviews for fanfiction? Why put the burden on the writers? It's the same medium: words. It's only the method of delivery that varies.

And good riddance, you stupid, pretentious bitch.

By the way, get yourself a fucking thesaurus.

Is it entirely possible that you're overreacting to the fact that someone, y'know, continued to express a different opinion than your own?

I totally get that you believe something different and, what's more, I respect your right to hold a different view on this subject, but you have to construct and defend your arguments with a lot more skill if you plan on convincing anyone else here to switch sides. And you also have to realize that most of the people here are of a fairly similar mindset, so the deck is kinda stacked against you, I'm afraid. Trying to call us to task for not changing our views because of your half-hearted arguments is not only pointless but downright silly.

I'd rather keep this from becoming a shouting match, so let me just say that, respectfully, I disagree with you. I think the only thing that the author can possibly be expected to warn you about is the rating of the story and what elements earn the story that rating. I don't think it's the author's reponsibility to essentially protect you from the real world which is generally NOT a fluffy, happy place. Bad stuff happens in real life, often quite abruptly, and you rarely get warned about it beforehand unless you've got some freaky precognative abilites going on.

I see a culture's art, literature, etc. as representative of the experiences of members of that culture. If our experience of the real world is that it can often be hard-edged, unfair, and just generally Not Nice, then isn't it only logical to assume that our art would reflect that observation to some extent?

That free will thing can kinda suck sometimes because it entails a lot of personal responsibility and a lot of personal acceptance of consequences. And I agree that sometimes it's very comforting to have someone or something completely external to yourself that you can blame all the bad stuff on, but that's not living and that's not being an adult. I think the sooner you understand that life isn't always fluffy and happy, the better off you usually are.

I too wish I had a dollar for every unwarned crappy ending or shitty fic I ever read.

Oh, she means no puppies and roses? heh. Well, yes and no. I'm not a fan of the "and they she got run over by a van, ha hah" ending, but... dude, you pays your money, you takes your chances.

Wait a minute, that's right. You didn't pay.

< / snark>

I was directed to this journal by

elemental_fey and I feel compelled to make a point, even if it may fall on deaf ears.

Warnings are a double edged sword, in fanfiction. On one level, many people will read anything and don't WANT to know about warnings/plot spoilers. On the other, many people don't want to read certain things, as is their right.

Many of you have pointed out that the real world is not a place of happy endings always prevailing, and that is true, but I also have to make the point that fanficion is not the real world. Many people read it for escape, and don't want to be burdened with the heavier points of life.

Books, films and television shows are all mediums that have a lot more publicity than the piece of fiction that a single person posts online. A film has a rating (one user stated that they have no warnings -- I'm not sure about elsewhere, but I here in Australia where I am they do carry tags for 'violence', 'horror' etc), and most of them will be seen in previews that give the prespective audience a clear indication of the films' genre, and what its plot might contain. A book is placed in a genre, and has an outline. Usually, genre and summary will give the audience an idea as to what it will contain. Television shows have a combination of these.

When a person wants to read a piece of fanfiction online, the only outline they have (usually) is the outline provided by the writer. It is common courtesy to give a genre (including angst, etc) so the reader has some idea what to expect, to post and adequete rating and give warnings for anything that might be potentially disturbing (such as character death).

I live for the most part in the Harry Potter fandom, so I can only really speak with any authority on that. They are a series of books written for children, and so I think it makes the posting of warnings very important. Fans of say, 'Kill Bill' are much less likely to be wary of stories containing violence and character death than people reading Harry Potter. Warnings should be appropriate to the fandom, as far as angst and adult content go.

In any fandom, I think things like non-consensual sex or character death should be given warnings - it should be up to the reader to decide whether they want to read that. Imagine being a rape victim and not being warned of a story that contained graphic non-con? Or a parent reading about the graphic death of a child? It's just courtesy to warn about such things. We are not the owners of this material, so it is not our creative license.

There is no need to say, in thses cases, WHO is raped, or WHO dies - a general warning will not usually ruin plot, and it sends away those who do not want to read such things.

My two cents.

...I think my problem is that, no one is twisting anyone's arm to read fic.

It's written for fun, for the most part.

Generally, I agree about rape warnings. Character death, otoh, no. I'm sorry, but if someone dying is going to bother someone, don't read my fic.

A character death warning has ALWAYS unimpressed me, and I've ranted extensively on the subject before.

It wasn't until Stargate fandom that I've ever encountered it before.

Still, I take your point. I think I'll start warning for everything.

I suppose character death warnings come down to being up to the individual writer. If someone's posted a fic rated R or NC-17 and classes it as 'angst' as far as genre goes, a character death warning is probably not necessary, since the reader knows they are reading something potentially upsetting. If, on the other hand, the fic is genre: 'genral' and PG-13, a character death is not really something the average reader would believe to be on the cards.

I think an "angst" label should suffice for character death. I have put warnings on my fics for character death because it really wasn't worth the trouble to keep getting emails where people go "OMG you killed her!!!" Even with a warning I still got feedback from people begging me to make a sequel and undo the death. *shrugs*

As a writer I hate the character death warning. Why? Because it takes away a lot of impact that isn't worth it.

There is a really simple solution though, that can spare both writer and reader. I do it myself when I'm just not up to reading fic with bad endings, I scroll down and make sure the ending isn't bad. Yes, it will screw some of the surprise up. But honestly? It doesn't spoil the reading experience of people who are not touchy about the subject.

Be grateful you'll never stumble across any of my fic. It'd break your sheltered little mind, I'm afraid...

(And you know, I'm hugely amused as I quite graphically killed a child without even putting an 'angst!' warning on it OMG!)

I will make the exception that rape should be warned for, but mostly because most other media tend not to do it as violently as fic does (unless you're reading Crow novelizations, of course.)

Then again, I may just warn for inappropriate use of firearms and screw you all.

I actually read quite a bit of dark, twisted fanfiction that deals with all sorts of angst, and don't particularly like having plot spoiled. That doesn't mean I don't see a need for warnings.

As I said, posting warnings is courtesy.

If a good fanfic writer wants to shock their audience, they will warn them about a death and still manage to do so. The ability to expose parts of a plot and still surprise the audience is a mark of talent.

The ability to expose parts of a plot and still surprise the audience is a mark of talent.

I disagree with this statement. If the director of The Crying Game had insisted on a full frontal view of Ra Jaye Davidon on the movie poster, no amount of skillful crafting could change the fact filmgoers knew the plot twist before they ever saw the move and would not be shocked by it.

If Agatha Christie put on the book jacket the disclaimer, "I cheated. The narrator did it," what would even be the point of reading The Murder of Roger Ackroyd?

I haven't seen The Crying Game, so I really couldn't comment there.

As for Agatha Christie, the title and genre of the work are indicative of the content... the reader knows that this is some sort of murder to happen, and some sort of twist in the end. Writer reputation also plays a part, there, which doesn't happen in fanfiction, for the most part.

Even someone like JKR (to get back on my HP bandwagon) mentioned before the release of OotP that someone was going to die -- probably as much to generate the 'who will it be?' as to prepare people for the fact that someone WOULD die. That definitely didn't make the ending of the story any less of a surprise.

You've missed my point completely.

When the plot twist is the key to the story, asking writers to reveal it in the front matter is cutting them off at the knees. The talent of the writer is immaterial - you've taken away one of their primary tools, namely, not knowing how the story ends until the very end.

I suppose you're right, with that one. If the story hinged on something like a character death, or something upsetting, giving an appropriate rating and genre would be enough to warn away people who did not want to read those sorts of things, without ruining the ending of the story.

I guess you've never read a fic where warning about the death would pretty much ruin the plot of the story? I've sure as hell *written* them.

I think what this boils down to is a whole bunch of whiny bitches who want the readers to cater to them so they don't actually have to do any work when selecting a fic to read. Because this bullshit about maliciously leaving off labels in order to get people to read the fic? Is bullshit. Trust me, we don't care enough to want to manipulate your sorry little asses. Get the fuck over it.

But really. Okay, let's look at it this way. I'm mortally afraid of bees. Truly fucking phobic. Should I demand everyone warn for bees because it might upset me? By this logic, I should. Better warn for random deserts--some people don't like sand.

This is just such a stupid fucking debate. And you know, you can tell us what you think we should and shouldn't do until you turn blue.

We still don't have to listen to you.

Nor do we actually give a fuck.

The only fic I've ever read where a character death warning mattered was a fic that involved only one character. It was thus rather obvious who was going to die.

I understand your point about people whining. Of COURSE writers aren't being malicious, but, at the same time, if you don't warn, and you write something potentially upsettting, you're lining yourself up for those sorts of reviews.

It can get out of hand. Generally, I warn for things that are generally accepted as requiring warning: non-con, character death, abuse, that sort of thing. I don't warn for slash or BDSM, but my summaries usually cover if either are involved.

You don't have to listen, of course. Its just my opinion.

See? You know what the problem is?

I, for example, would be annoyed at a warning for character death, but I'd like to know if there is slash in the damned story.

Honestly, I don't warn for shit. Either people will read it or not. It's fairly obvious I'm not warning for anything, so I figure anyone who cares will be able to tell.

And I still stand by my (much earlier) statement that everyone reads fanfic at their own risk. You're not guaranteed to like it. That's what happens when you read shit other people write for fun and stuff up at places like FF.N

*mutters* Do they even know how to read?

*is mean*

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