lyssie | *cracks knuckles* Warning for rantiness and hyperbole

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cracks knuckles Warning for rantiness and hyperbole

First, since I was recently told that I should never be offended by something that wasn't aimed at me, I'd like to say thank you. Really.

Second, IT IS THAT TIME AGAIN. Where I warn you that, shockingly, I am that annoying fangirl feminist type that thinks ruining your squee is fun. Sometimes, I even daydream it (like, frell, I had the whole day to think up this post, you guys.)

Third. Anastasia Dualla is more awesome than you and God, too.

Wait. That wasn't actually what I wanted to say, but that is pertinent to life, anyway.

Ahem. Because this apparently needs saying again (dude, two years, and you'd think the Kara/Sam people wouldn't pick up bad habits from the crazy Kara/Lee people [I SAID THE CRAZY ONES, not the nice, sane ones]). Anastasia Dualla is not stupid, weak, or a horrible example to women everywhere for giving Lee Adama a second chance (or for wanting to save her marriage).

Yes, I know. The rant I linked to is more geared towards knocking down the Sam Anders bashing arguments, but given that Dee and Sam are in the same position, it applies to both.

You can make the argument that Dee and Lee started their marriage on a lie, except, um, with that deleted scene, no it didn't.

You can make the argument that Lee never loved Dee, and I'll counter with "perception is in the eye of the beholder" because as far as I'm concerned Lee DID love her (we got nowhere near the development for them we got for Kara and Sam, which is sad. BUT NONE of the quadodoom got a lot of development outside of longing glances and ridiculous retcons).

You can make the argument that Kara was always honest with Sam, but Lee was never honest with Dee, and I will laugh in your face. Because, BULLSHIT. We know NOTHING but conjecture about their marriages.

What we do know?

Kara likes calling Sam for sex.
Lee hides in bars.
Dee calls him on his bullshit.
Sam sometimes calls Kara on hers, though less once he's a Cylon.

I would have more, but clearly, I'm hungry. ALSO. THERE IS GOING TO BE A SAM MINI-MATE. THERE IS A GOD.

In closing: there is a sexist double-standard in this fandom: Sam gets a free pass because he looooves Kara sooooooo much. And she loves him! So it's totally ok for him to forgive her and take her back. But Dee? Totally weak and stupid (and other words I would like to punch people for).

ALSO. Because it bears repeating: MARRIAGE IS NOT A FREE PASS TO HAPPY BUNNY LAND. Real marriages TAKE WORK. And shouldering that burden and trying to make it work? IS FAR STRONGER than just walking away. Not to mention, you can be 100% compatible and STILL FAIL at it.

(pls insert your own hyperbolic curse words as needed, I need pizza. *nom*)

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Are you telling me I can't be disgusted with Lee for when he was all "just your insecurities, Dee! Ever since the day I proposed! And I can't feel superior to hardcore Lee fans when they go on about how he's so much more moral and upright than Kara and he never really wronged Dee or anyone else, never? BECAUSE I NEED MY FEELINGS OF SUPERIORITY, LYSSIE!

But yeah, I never happened to ship Lee/Dee, but that doesn't mean Dee sucks as a character. (And I do think Lee loved her.) Even if she was in a horrible, retconned Cally/Chief like marriage, that still doesn't make her a horrible character. It just makes her a character who didn't lead a charmed life.

Nah. Lee was still a dick. But so was Kara. *flees*

(*noms pizza*)

Well, it wasn't even all retcon. There's the horrible fatsuit bit which, just, I ignore, because srsly? Losing all that weight in five minutes? So not on.

*noms pizza s'more and dodges the cat's glares*

Kara was totally a dick, just in a different way. (And one that I happen to find more sympathetic. *hopelessly biased fangirl*)

But yeah, Lee/Dee and Kara/Sam were both supposed to be "sham marriages," so if K/S shippers are bashing Dee on those grounds, um. (And if Dee had been a Cylon instead of Sam, she and Lee would be climbing mountains together, I'll bet anything.)

*pokes through her icons, trying to find more smirks* (what, this is IMPORTANT, to the chain, here) AH.

Well, yes. For one thing, she is our girl. For another, she's not... as... um... high-minded as Lee.

Not bashing, entirely. Just saying she's weak, which, no. NO.

HEY. No giving away plotbunnies, YOU.

*pokes through her icons, trying to find more smirks*

G.I.C.

*shakes fist* 500 words, Allie.

He wouldn't have been able to lose it that fast without Helo's amazing spotting and coaching skillz.

That explains it. Someone needs to clone Helo.... (wait...)

No can do. His ancestor/descendant/clonethingy has been co-opted by the Dollhouse. *randomly crosses fandoms like whoa* ; )

Dude, if he's cloned, there are many copies.

Probably, but too many would cause the fabric of the multiverse to implode from sheer envy. ; )

I loved Dee. I still believe that she rocked something serious but was horrendously under-developed (and there was handwavy crap all over seasons two, three and four that still make me angry). It makes me angry when people slag on her or other characters. WTF, people?

I also think that the characters all screwed things up here and there but who wants perfect people on their show or in their fanfic or whatever? Lee screwed up so many times that I wanted to throw things at him (right into the finale, stupid bonehead). Kara made me throw up my hands and go "WTF, woman!" The list could go on and on. But I don't expect for characters to be perfect. I save that for the inevitable Mary-Sues that creep into fanfiction. *sigh*

. But I don't expect for characters to be perfect.

THIS. Times a thousand. Even if sometimes I want to hit them, and throw things at them. They should be people first!

but given that Dee and Sam are in the same position, it applies to both.

remind me: did the two of them ever hook up on the show? Or was it just Sam with Roslin's former assistant who was a cylon whose name I can't remember right now? (You can tell how closely I was paying attention those last couple of seasons, eh?)

Sadly,no ~~dear god, the wank might have been epic~~

Sigh. Oh, Tory. Another character horribly under-written and maligned.

*kicks the fandom*

Sadly,no dear god, the wank might have been epic

Yep.

And frighteningly, now I'm getting fic ideas. *meep*

Tory! That was it. I will refrain from starting on the topic of Women on BSG because preaching, choir, etc.

Wow Judgemental much Lyssie? I don't know what what pisses me off more that you are bashing ME here like this or that you obviously didn't even read my response to your post first before you decided to put this up.

1) I was not "bashing" Dee I simply trying to have an adult conversation about my opinions of her part in the Quad of Doom. I have valid in-story reason's for feeling the way I do which I was trying to explain and you would have heard had you given me the chance.

2) There a several difference's between Sam's situation and Dee's mostly that Lee really didn't care all that much about Dee. If he had he would been able to put Dee ahead of himself and not ask her to stay and be his security blanket. (Like Kara and Sam have both done for each other at that point in the story)

3) There is short hand for situations like this its called YMMV it means that we don't have to agree and that neither of us is wrong, we just see things differently. As for my feminism I have to point out that catty crap like this is the epitome of anti-feminist behavior.

If anyone wants my story instead just getting the gospel from on high here my post is at this url http://scifiaddict86.livejournal.com/5435.html

I was already planning this post, honestly. You are not the first person on our side of the fence to say Dee was stupid for taking Lee back. You are simply the latest (somewhere back in the dark days of the K/S thread is me yelling at everyone for it and being soundly told "don't like, don't read") and the current catalyst.

You talk about the Kara/Lee shippers reining in their crazies? Well, this is me speaking out against someone bashing a pairing that has nothing to do with Kara/Sam.

1. I read your theories. They're the same ones Kara/Lee shippers give, so I tend to discount them on principle.

2. Lee learned from his father that duty, the people, the big picture, come first. I don't care who he's married to, the woman is going to have to learn to live with that ~~or smack him out of it~~.

And Lee asked Dee to take him back on her terms after she'd already proved to him she knew he'd been an ass. He knew he'd screwed up, and he apologized. The idea that he'd then go randomly sleep around on her is ridiculous.

3. Feminism is about choice, yes. Dee made a choice. I made a choice. You made a choice. We all won.

And, for serious? You think this is catty?

I said, "I think this person is wrong, and anyone who agrees is wrong. And I am really tired of this double-standard, where Sam gets a free pass because he has a penis, but Dee gets called all sorts of names because she dared to forgive her husband and want her marriage to work."

I didn't say, "I think this person is so stupid, and here's why they're an idiot. Oh, and did I mention it's *insert name here* and you should all laugh at them with me?"

1. I seriously doubt anyone on that side was saying Lee was too selfish to love anyone it just not their MO.
2. I don't think Lee loved her all that much in the first place (Dee even said it in the deleted scene) and I think the affair proved he didn't improve on that. I think Lee coped with his mother's abusive personality by shutting off his emotions and it limits his ability not only to form connections but to empathize with others as an adult. You see it in his other relationships as well when he can't see his father grieving Kara, or why Laura was pissed at him post Crossroads. I think Lee was a profoundly selfish person who had little scruples when it came to sex (table scene, Shevon etc) and I think he can justify better than Baltar when he wants, if the situation was right he wouldn't have lost much sleep over a second affair.
3. I have a serious issue with the fact that you decided to attack indirectly rather than tell me you disagree. To me it feels like you went behind my back and that's one thing I cannot stand. I get that this post wasn't specifically about me but since it came almost directly after mine (almost right after I finished responding to you on my post actually) it felt rather like a personal attack. Lumping me in with a bunch of "crazies" isn't exactly supposed feel nice is it?

Also I don't see how pointing out the Dee was weak in this situation is any different than pointing out that Ellen was a drunk. As you said above real women have flaws and I don't see how pointing that out is anti-feminist.

(deleted comment)

I see the distinction made by some Kara/Lee shippers and the occasional Kara/Sam shipper. Which boggles my weetinybrains.

I don't knooooow. Maybe they never watched their own parents or something? Romance novels? Soap operas? Bad romance comedies?

Oh, Dee...*huggles*...The more I think about it, the more I realize that NONE of these characters survived this show without being seriously screwed over. I mean, the characters that made out that best either A: Died REALLY early on like poor Kat or B: Had what could be considered happy endings, even though they'd been screwed over throughout much of the series (see: Caprica 6 as a PERFECT example of this).

I'll never understand why fans feel the need to bash the characters that 'get in the way of' their ships. I mean, I can understand LOVING a ship to a (somewhat) insane degree but that doesn't give you the right to hate on any/all characters not involved in that ship. I COULD hate on Lee for getting into the middle of both Dee/Billy AND Kara/Sam...but I won't because A: Lee is a fictional character WRITTEN to do the things he does (I'm sure even he had a WTF?!moment regarding that pidgeon) and B: Who the heck wants to watch people who never make any mistakes? I'll take the screwed up relationships on BSG over happy!blissfull ships any day because THEY'RE REAL!!! Real relationships are COMPLICATED and to pretend otherwise is to sugar-coat reality.

Oh, and as far as the Dee *huggles*...*points to icon*...Helo's taking care of that.

Poor Caprica. :(

To be fair, I've done the bashing myself, though it's been a long time. (I'm fairly sure there are archived posts from me on ye ol' Sam/Jack list stating that Daniel was whiny and annoying [which he sort of is], because that's what all the cool kids thought, and so, party line and all that)

and occasionally, I feel the urge to bash Lee because of his annoying fans. (Rose Tyler also causes the same urge, sadly)

But, as you say, bashing is sort of POINTLESS. And a waste of my energy. ~~I could be writing, after all~~. Also, having loved characters on the end of a great deal of bashing (from Helo to Sam to 'Thena to Boomer to Kara to Cally, Dee and Tory...) I know how annoying it is, and it makes me watch my words.

Helo gives THE BEST HUGS. Ever.

I don't think Kara is honest with Sam about the cheating as much as she just doesn't attempt to keep it from him, the way Lee does. But. The reason I judge Lee more harshly than Kara is mostly about authorial intent, for me. It's, like, I can get over Faith MURDERING people, but I can't overlook the fact that Buffy once tried to unsuccessfully kill a human being. Because the first is acknowledged by canon as being horrible, but the second is totally overlooked. Kara's cheating is still seen by canon as cheating, while I can't help but feel that Ron wants me to see Lee as the morally upright person who wouldn't cheat and Kara as the temptress who does this, apparently, all the time. I know cut scenes aren't canon, but the fact that that one scene was there means that there was SOMEONE there who was reading it that way at some point. Which, well, has more to do with my inability to go along with authorial intent on things like these and feeling the need to rebel out of spite than actual canon maybe? ;)

In closing: there is a sexist double-standard in this fandom: Sam gets a free pass because he looooves Kara sooooooo much. And she loves him! So it's totally ok for him to forgive her and take her back. But Dee? Totally weak and stupid (and other words I would like to punch people for).

So I have never actually participated in the BSG fandom at large, but I thought Sam was also generally seen as weak for putting up with Kara's batshitery?

But, yeah, I've always seen Dee as one of the stronger characters on the show and marrying Lee and staying in that marriage to work things out have both contributed to that perception for me.

Ron still needs smacking, yes. And I'm down with judging Lee more harshly. It's just the judging Dee that makes me crankypants.

So I have never actually participated in the BSG fandom at large, but I thought Sam was also generally seen as weak for putting up with Kara's batshitery?

OH MAN. Dude. There is a WHOLE school of thought somewhere out there about how SAM IS AN ABUSED WIFE and stuff. It is HILARIOUS reading. In a "makes you want to stab your eyes out" way.

Mostly, because, co-opting a REAL PROBLEM to make their relationship (which, um, sorry, NOT abuse) look awful is sort of offensive.

Dee was never the first character to jump out at me, but for the most part with every appearance, Dee kept making me like her more and more. For her weaknesses and strengths.

I think her relationship with Lee showed both. It also showed a woman, who could have been in any setting, who was coming to terms with a harsh reality, trying to do the best she could in a less than perfect situation, cared about others even when they didn't show her the same consideration, and was becoming her own, rather strong, person.

I know Dee may not have fit the mold for a lot in the same way a lot of the women on BSG did, but in a sense she was every woman. One might not be able to relate to every action or emotion she had, but I highly doubt one could say they never felt like or acted in the same manner she did.

She was real; she had her moments of quiet desperation, she had her moments of strength. There were times she took charge, and times she had the nerve to say what no one else would. She gave all she had to just about everything, sometimes neglecting her own best interest. She was flawed, but in her own way she was amazing.

Dee is her own kind of awesome. And this has been brought up before, but on a show with so many complex characters it seems a little close minded for people to say she wasn't a good character just because she's not awesome in the same way as other characters who they may like more. (Which I kind of feel is where some of the anti-Dee feelings come from)

Edited 2009-06-15 23:47 (UTC)

Yes! All of that. =D

Do you know what happens when you cross Dee? You get smacked down HARD :) Adama tried it. Lee tried it. Hell, Kara tried it. They all got a smackdown :)

I love Dee. One of the things I love about her is that she is a strong female character, but she still is very "feminine" in that she has a very soft, tender side, she's in tunes with her emotions, and she's a girl. I actually in many ways find Dee more relatable than some of the other strong female characters because she's the most like women I know. (Although Cally is the one I relate to most.)

I've been having fun writing her marriage with Lee, although I started in New Caprica, which is like THE WORST time to start with Lee because he was so depressed. But now that we're out of New Caprica, it's fun :)

I judge Lee harshly for cheating or nearly-cheating, whatever he wants to call it. Marital infidelity is a big one with me. However, I don't judge Dee for that, or for forgiving him. I honestly don't know what I'd do in that situation. (I actually have a scene coming up in my fic where I'm getting to argue about four different points of view on it.) On the other hand, I'd like to think that while I don't blame Dee, there were problems in their marriage that the two of them weren't confronting. (Which, given that they're both coping with an apocalypse, I think that's understandable.)

But you try to take Dee down, and you WILL regret it. ::grin::

<3 That is awesome. =D

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cracks knuckles Warning for rantiness and hyperbole

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