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Meta: BSG, Kara/Anders, and Ron's new ideas about Starbuck.
Contains spoilers through Eye of Jupiter.
In an effort to aim this at the right audience, I'm going to note up front that if you're a Kara/Lee shipper? This is not the meta for you. In fact, you want meta by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
wisteria_, marenfic, bijoux, leda13, and half a dozen others.
See icon? Yes. That would be me. This is not going to be particularly unbiased, though I'll try. Most of this is me, rambling, with random thoughts that ended up getting dropped in here and there (I think I went in a circle at one point--and some of this made it into Chemistry of a Car Crash).
When Ron Moore sets out to destroy a character, he really goes all out, doesn't he? I'll admit, part of my dislike for where he's going with the characters is that I loathe Kara's Angsty Childhood. Honestly, if I want to see the Victim/Abused Child/etc. thing, I'll read a Mercedes Lackey book. Or, hell, if I really want to get mired, I'll re-read Gael Baudino's Shroud of Shadow--damn book doesn't even have a fucking payoff for all the shit in it.
I tend to find things like 'destiny' a cop-out to real character development. Oh! Kara doesn't have to be a real person or change, she has a Destiny! Yay. Yeah. Not.
*dies* My playlist is... special.Breaking Benjamin's Sugarcult's Three Days Grace' "I Hate Everything About You" is a Kara/Anders song. And is playing, as I type this.
So. Ron says Kara Thrace took over Ellen's job as the Whore of New Caprica after she married Sam. That Sam knows about it. (at least, that's what's been told to me. I don't think I'm allowed to ever listen to Ron. Ever.)
Great, Ron. That's. Great.
I know that part of my disgust (ok, most of it) is one thing: marriage. I'm beginning to wonder if Ron has an aversion to it, because this has actually PASSED Red Cap series 2's need to continually say "Marriage sucks, no one lasts, everyone cheats." Which is pretty damned impressive (Angie and Brucie don't count, they hadn't got married yet, and I'm sure series three would have split them up... *dodges thrown things from A.j.*)
If Kara hadn't married Sam, I'd have no problems with it. Hell, I'd be all for it. I've wanted Kara to be the Starbuck that has a girl on every planet since the beginning.
But Kara did marry Sam, and thus, I have an instinctive loathing of infidelity.
Putting all of that aside...
I still stand by what I said, previously. I think Kara and Sam were happy on NC. I think she needs him, cares for him, whatever (if I start talking Love, I get irritated).
Sam. I think Sam went into their marriage with both eyes open--Kara asked him to marry him, smelling of stale sex and dirt and sweat (unless she took a shower, but Starbuck's hygiene has never been all that brilliant). He knew she'd been with another man, and he decided that having her as his wife would be enough (interesting. I want to ask if he saw Kara as a status symbol, but I don't think Sam's that shallow). I think Sam loves her, I think he's sometimes a little frightened by how much he needs her. I think he sometimes wishes she'd never come to Caprica.
It was far easier to fight the cylons and not care.
Kara's behavior is, apparently, consistent with someone who was abused as a child (I seem to recall reading it in meta, somewhere). She's constantly looking for confirmation that she's lovable because she doesn't love herself. And let be sarcastic, here. Thanks to Ron, apparently, women can't like sex because they like sex. They have to be damaged as a child and attention-seeking. Not only that, you can't be a brash bitch without having been beaten as a small child. If you're a woman.
I find it fascinating that we've never had Sam or Kara say they love each other. Kara's said love to Lee and Leoben (both under forced circumstances), and Lee said it several times. Did Leoben say it? (I don't think he did. hrm).
Kara and Sam's love seems to all be in actions, in little things (or big). She moved heaven and earth to go back to Caprica for him. He ran the New Caprica resistance to get her back (ok, so it was also to get rid of the cylons). Sam finding her in the cell, Kara's manic grin when he confirms it's really him... Her worry about him being sick, his worry about her, and need for their marriage. And, of course, his anger at her for not talking to him. All of that makes their relationship very real, to me.
As for Kara's behavior... And Sam's acceptance of it.
Sam is not going to make her change--he figures that's something she has to do on her own. So he's just going to be there for her. And if she never changes, maybe someday, he'll give up.
Lee would try to make her change and it would... make it worse. In fact, let me state for the record: Lee and his magickal healing cock are not going to keep Kara on the straight and narrow.
Now I'm wondering if Kara slept around on Zak. Did she sleep with Lee?
Anyway. There's a theory I've seen (I'm fairly certain it was Wisteria who postulated it--yes, I read Kara/Lee meta, and yes, I will borrow it for my own use), that Kara does stupid shit to make the person she's with prove their love to her. The theory went something like: Kara shoves Lee away by marrying Sam, and if he comes back, he loves her, etc... Well, how much worse is it that she's sleeping around on Sam and yet he won't let her go? He keeps coming back to her, like a yo-yo.
Or she keeps coming back to him.
It makes me want to throw things at Ron Moore, but at least now my OTP is the most fucked up on the show? The Tighs notwithstanding, of course.
And then there's the tattoos. I still want to know if it was Sam or Kara that proposed them. I'm wondering if Kara did, if, in some way, it was her silent promise to Sam to always come back to him.
The reason I say that is, well, the body language. In the bit where Kara steps between the two of them, it's not Lee she's trying to calm. It's Sam. Sam who she makes a physical connection with, Sam who she bares her neck to, Sam who she basically says (in body and eyes), "He doesn't mean anything, honey. Calm down." to.
In a way, Sam married Kara because it was the only promise she could give him. Instead of "I'll come back for you." it's "I'll come back to you." She might stray, but he's always the one constant in her life. The one man she'll come back to, over and over again.
Anyway. Leaving all of that Kara the Abuse Victim crap aside, I can explain it without making her childhood an issue.
Kara likes sex. Kara's an adrenaline junkie. Sex with men (or women) not her husband is forbidden, and there's the chance of getting caught. Plus, it means he's cranky and they fight, which is kind of hot (at least, I assume they fight) and might make for even more hot sex when they make up (not to mention, well, angry sex can also be damned hot).
As for Sam's anger in EoJ, I think he's pissed at Kara because she won't talk to him. And he's pissed at Lee, because Lee doesn't get the rules. Lee can play all he wants, but in the end, he doesn't get to keep Kara. I also wonder if he's pissed on Dee's behalf--and maybe Kara used to limit her attentions to guys who weren't married?
I'd like to know what Sam is supposed to do to keep her from straying, btw. Tie her to their bed? Get pissed and leave? He doesn't want to leave, he wants Kara. And if this is all he can get, he'll take it.
Lee was right, in Scar. Kara does have problems with the live ones. The dead don't expect her to be perfect, or fit a certain mold.
*snicker* Lee is one of those virginal Regency Romance Heroines who believes her rake of a husband will settle down once she marries him. Or, in Lee's case, marries her.
Interesting, I keep trying to avoid 'own' and 'claim', when talking about Kara/Anders. Is it because I hated it so much when people talked about it in Sam/Jack? Because, in some ways, ifgrav_ity's comments about ownership being denoted with tattoos in Roman/Greek times apply to BSG, then Sam does own Kara. And she owns him right back--the tattoos go both ways, after all (unless BSGverse really isn't as equal as Ron keeps trying to make it).
Kara may also think she doesn't deserve a good marriage--not after Zak. So she sleeps around because it keeps Sam at bay, because it keeps them from being perfect.
And right now? Not only is that part of it, she's also sleeping around because of Leoben. She admitted to a machine that she loved him. She thought she had a chance at a perfect family with Kacey (did Sam feature, I don't know). A chance to erase the past.
That chance is gone.
You know the other reason I hate this entire mess? It's a Debbie Gibson album. Seriously. Listen to half the tracks off Electric Youth, and you'll find yourself disturbed at how teeniebopper the whole thing is.
In an effort to aim this at the right audience, I'm going to note up front that if you're a Kara/Lee shipper? This is not the meta for you. In fact, you want meta by
wisteria_, marenfic, bijoux, leda13, and half a dozen others. See icon? Yes. That would be me. This is not going to be particularly unbiased, though I'll try. Most of this is me, rambling, with random thoughts that ended up getting dropped in here and there (I think I went in a circle at one point--and some of this made it into Chemistry of a Car Crash).
When Ron Moore sets out to destroy a character, he really goes all out, doesn't he? I'll admit, part of my dislike for where he's going with the characters is that I loathe Kara's Angsty Childhood. Honestly, if I want to see the Victim/Abused Child/etc. thing, I'll read a Mercedes Lackey book. Or, hell, if I really want to get mired, I'll re-read Gael Baudino's Shroud of Shadow--damn book doesn't even have a fucking payoff for all the shit in it.
I tend to find things like 'destiny' a cop-out to real character development. Oh! Kara doesn't have to be a real person or change, she has a Destiny! Yay. Yeah. Not.
*dies* My playlist is... special.
So. Ron says Kara Thrace took over Ellen's job as the Whore of New Caprica after she married Sam. That Sam knows about it. (at least, that's what's been told to me. I don't think I'm allowed to ever listen to Ron. Ever.)
Great, Ron. That's. Great.
I know that part of my disgust (ok, most of it) is one thing: marriage. I'm beginning to wonder if Ron has an aversion to it, because this has actually PASSED Red Cap series 2's need to continually say "Marriage sucks, no one lasts, everyone cheats." Which is pretty damned impressive (Angie and Brucie don't count, they hadn't got married yet, and I'm sure series three would have split them up... *dodges thrown things from A.j.*)
If Kara hadn't married Sam, I'd have no problems with it. Hell, I'd be all for it. I've wanted Kara to be the Starbuck that has a girl on every planet since the beginning.
But Kara did marry Sam, and thus, I have an instinctive loathing of infidelity.
Putting all of that aside...
I still stand by what I said, previously. I think Kara and Sam were happy on NC. I think she needs him, cares for him, whatever (if I start talking Love, I get irritated).
Sam. I think Sam went into their marriage with both eyes open--Kara asked him to marry him, smelling of stale sex and dirt and sweat (unless she took a shower, but Starbuck's hygiene has never been all that brilliant). He knew she'd been with another man, and he decided that having her as his wife would be enough (interesting. I want to ask if he saw Kara as a status symbol, but I don't think Sam's that shallow). I think Sam loves her, I think he's sometimes a little frightened by how much he needs her. I think he sometimes wishes she'd never come to Caprica.
It was far easier to fight the cylons and not care.
Kara's behavior is, apparently, consistent with someone who was abused as a child (I seem to recall reading it in meta, somewhere). She's constantly looking for confirmation that she's lovable because she doesn't love herself. And let be sarcastic, here. Thanks to Ron, apparently, women can't like sex because they like sex. They have to be damaged as a child and attention-seeking. Not only that, you can't be a brash bitch without having been beaten as a small child. If you're a woman.
I find it fascinating that we've never had Sam or Kara say they love each other. Kara's said love to Lee and Leoben (both under forced circumstances), and Lee said it several times. Did Leoben say it? (I don't think he did. hrm).
Kara and Sam's love seems to all be in actions, in little things (or big). She moved heaven and earth to go back to Caprica for him. He ran the New Caprica resistance to get her back (ok, so it was also to get rid of the cylons). Sam finding her in the cell, Kara's manic grin when he confirms it's really him... Her worry about him being sick, his worry about her, and need for their marriage. And, of course, his anger at her for not talking to him. All of that makes their relationship very real, to me.
As for Kara's behavior... And Sam's acceptance of it.
Sam is not going to make her change--he figures that's something she has to do on her own. So he's just going to be there for her. And if she never changes, maybe someday, he'll give up.
Lee would try to make her change and it would... make it worse. In fact, let me state for the record: Lee and his magickal healing cock are not going to keep Kara on the straight and narrow.
Now I'm wondering if Kara slept around on Zak. Did she sleep with Lee?
Anyway. There's a theory I've seen (I'm fairly certain it was Wisteria who postulated it--yes, I read Kara/Lee meta, and yes, I will borrow it for my own use), that Kara does stupid shit to make the person she's with prove their love to her. The theory went something like: Kara shoves Lee away by marrying Sam, and if he comes back, he loves her, etc... Well, how much worse is it that she's sleeping around on Sam and yet he won't let her go? He keeps coming back to her, like a yo-yo.
Or she keeps coming back to him.
It makes me want to throw things at Ron Moore, but at least now my OTP is the most fucked up on the show? The Tighs notwithstanding, of course.
And then there's the tattoos. I still want to know if it was Sam or Kara that proposed them. I'm wondering if Kara did, if, in some way, it was her silent promise to Sam to always come back to him.
The reason I say that is, well, the body language. In the bit where Kara steps between the two of them, it's not Lee she's trying to calm. It's Sam. Sam who she makes a physical connection with, Sam who she bares her neck to, Sam who she basically says (in body and eyes), "He doesn't mean anything, honey. Calm down." to.
In a way, Sam married Kara because it was the only promise she could give him. Instead of "I'll come back for you." it's "I'll come back to you." She might stray, but he's always the one constant in her life. The one man she'll come back to, over and over again.
Anyway. Leaving all of that Kara the Abuse Victim crap aside, I can explain it without making her childhood an issue.
Kara likes sex. Kara's an adrenaline junkie. Sex with men (or women) not her husband is forbidden, and there's the chance of getting caught. Plus, it means he's cranky and they fight, which is kind of hot (at least, I assume they fight) and might make for even more hot sex when they make up (not to mention, well, angry sex can also be damned hot).
As for Sam's anger in EoJ, I think he's pissed at Kara because she won't talk to him. And he's pissed at Lee, because Lee doesn't get the rules. Lee can play all he wants, but in the end, he doesn't get to keep Kara. I also wonder if he's pissed on Dee's behalf--and maybe Kara used to limit her attentions to guys who weren't married?
I'd like to know what Sam is supposed to do to keep her from straying, btw. Tie her to their bed? Get pissed and leave? He doesn't want to leave, he wants Kara. And if this is all he can get, he'll take it.
Lee was right, in Scar. Kara does have problems with the live ones. The dead don't expect her to be perfect, or fit a certain mold.
*snicker* Lee is one of those virginal Regency Romance Heroines who believes her rake of a husband will settle down once she marries him. Or, in Lee's case, marries her.
Interesting, I keep trying to avoid 'own' and 'claim', when talking about Kara/Anders. Is it because I hated it so much when people talked about it in Sam/Jack? Because, in some ways, if
grav_ity's comments about ownership being denoted with tattoos in Roman/Greek times apply to BSG, then Sam does own Kara. And she owns him right back--the tattoos go both ways, after all (unless BSGverse really isn't as equal as Ron keeps trying to make it).Kara may also think she doesn't deserve a good marriage--not after Zak. So she sleeps around because it keeps Sam at bay, because it keeps them from being perfect.
And right now? Not only is that part of it, she's also sleeping around because of Leoben. She admitted to a machine that she loved him. She thought she had a chance at a perfect family with Kacey (did Sam feature, I don't know). A chance to erase the past.
That chance is gone.
You know the other reason I hate this entire mess? It's a Debbie Gibson album. Seriously. Listen to half the tracks off Electric Youth, and you'll find yourself disturbed at how teeniebopper the whole thing is.
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I DON'T KNOW. Nor do I really care. *beats Ron*
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*splorfle* Oh, God, I love you even more now. *dies* Seriously, those were my Teenage Fangirl Emo Goddess Feminist Angst Tomes. (I'm tempted to add a "Womyn" in there, but I think I'd vomit.)
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...and I'm kind of sad I don't have my copy of Strands of Starlight here.. Although, hrm. *eyes boxes in her bedroom* It may be time for a little investigation.
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I think this is so astute. If we are to believe RM (which I don't, but I'm going with it here), then Anders has been putting up with this for a a good while. What makes this different is that Lee, at least, is trying to change the rules and Sam's having none of it.
We may disagree on how much Kara shares Lee's feelings, but I think this is still great meta *g* Mostly because I do think Kara has very real feelings for Anders and even though I think she does use him as an emotional (and sometimes physical) shield between herself and Lee, I think it's more than that. He isn't just a place holder for her.
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I swear, Stargate fandom has screwed me for life in agreeing that 'love' is allowable. (0h, the horrible fic I've read still haunts me today).
Thanks =)
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"I find it fascinating that we've never had Sam or Kara say they love each other...Kara and Sam's love seems to all be in actions, in little things (or big)."
As much as I would love to hear the words, I don't think they really need to say them. In that respect they remind me of Michael and Nikita from La Femme Nikita. They didn't say "I love you" to each other until the very last lines of dialog in the very last episode. But you knew the love was there in everything that they did for each other and to keep each other alive.
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And, see, I can't decide if my aversion to 'love' is a holdover from SG fandom, or if it's because of the overwhelming about of Kara/Lee True Love Forever that I tend to see.
But I definitely think she and Sam love each other (you don't spend half a year trying to rescue a man from a planet just because he was good in the sack--even Kara's vaunted need to keep her word wouldn't have been enough without something emotional involved).
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You made me spit coke on my monitor with this line.
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Tell your monitor it could have been coffee. ;)
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They even shouted it to the treetops (were there trees on New Caprica?)
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at least in the shrubbery.
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My version of Sam's pissiness at Lee is more because Lee is there. I doubt he gets faced with the other half of Kara's frakking around very often and certainly not trying to make nice with him. That's gotta ping as totally fake to Sam, when Sam KNOWS. Thus the smackdown: "You're not that special, and you're living in a dreamworld if you think you are." Which is why most of the K/L people can't believe it,because it makes the K/L not special. I don't LIKE the idea of Kara frakking anything that moves, especially in the NC year, but I can believe it if I have to. If that makes sense.
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I don't want to believe it, but I can understand it. If Kara likes to frak around--especially with the forbidden aspect... And you can NOT tell me that Sam wasn't a bit, "I won!" when he told Lee they'd gotten married.
*cute* (write me more fic?)
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Verbal Smackdown fic? Is that what you're talking about?
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Anyhoo, *back on topic. kinda.*, I don't really mind the bad childhood aspect. It could be handled better but eh. It would probably be better if they showed us her issues in the show rather than showing her having sex and then saying in interviews etc 'it's because she was abused'. Yeah, there's huge clues she was abused and yes, we could probably tie it into why she cheats etc but really, why should we? Aren't there enough mysteries in this show without making that yet another?
And cutting out half of what's filmed for an episode isn't gonna help those of us who are trying to see the justification for Kara/Lee and the original 'breakdown' of Kara/Sam. (One scene with her basically saying 'I don't want you to touch me' is not going to help. Especially not when we see her end it with him - and then their next(?) scene together is them having sex. 'Don't touch me - but we can still get it on'? Uh-huh...)
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There should have been a scene explaining how she got him back in her bed, because. Love the porn as I do, Sam wasn't just going to come when she crooked her finger.
Yes me again...
But I can't work that moment into a verse where Kara was already straying, and where he'd already accepted something bigger than her being angry with more cause (I mean, if he accepts her infidelity because "It's just who she is", then surely the fact that she wants to hurt him because of her imprisonment is far more understandable). what the hell is she warning him about if he's already been there, done that, or does she think that her infidelity *doesn't* hurt him? it just doesn't fit together. (which is a big shock, I know)
Re: Yes me again...
BUT YOU ARE RIGHT.
omg. I need to finish this damned fic and post it. AR.
Re: Yes me again...
Speaking of Leoben, another thought I had about the "you're not the first" line is that Sam might be referring to Leoben. As in Lee isn't the first to try to take his wife from him, Leoben was. This one I can stomach a bit more, but it does assume that Kara has told Sam about what happened with Leoben.
Re: Yes me again...
And anyway, the fact is that Leoben DID take her away from him, even disregarding all the twisted Happy Family crap. She was gone for three months, and only part of her came back. So no, Lee is definitely not the first one to try to take her away. And if that was what Sam meant, I would be one very happy fangirl. But... :/
Re: Yes me again...
Re: Yes me again...
Leoben takes Kara away from Sam. There is this weird mixture of violence and love(he wants Kara to love him but she keeps killing him). Sam finally gets her back, but she pulls away from his touch then pushes him away and tells him to leave. Something happened between the end of Collaborators and the start of Unfinished Business that Sam and Kara decided to give things another shot, but do it very slowly. I'm imagining they talked about Leoben and maybe had a couple of frak sessions. There had to be something going on that gave Sam an indication that things between them were getting better, and that he could mention getting the marriage back without being smacked upside the head or tossed out.
Now we come to the Lee, only this time the events happen in reverse. Sam and Kara have porn, and she pulls away from his touch, smacks him upside the head for mentioning the marriage, then throws his boots at him basically telling him to get out. He then goes to the "dance" and sees Kara and Lee engaging in their frakked up violence/love thing in the ring. After that he doesn't see her again until they meet up in the HQ on the algae planet in EoJ.
Re: Yes me again...
Re: Yes me again...
Re: Yes me again...
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I don't trust any of the BSG staff farther than I can throw a house for character continuity. But, I'll live. (I never have, really...)
Thanks. =)
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And I loved that we basically had it confirmed that House has always been an ass. ;)
I want to know that Kara really was sleeping around on Zak. Because that would, well, not be awesome. But it would SO make my theories work.
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I'm not sure I currently believe Kara cheated on Sam with anyone besides Lee. Until I learn otherwise (which may take a while -- I don't trust podcasts and I don't like spoilers), I will go with the theory that Sam said that just to upset Lee. Besides the implications for Kara, it would be sad if Sam would only say something like that if it were true. I very much want to like Sam, and I have a proven track record of not liking anyone who isn't a total bastard on occasion.
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I'm actually quite unhappy with the idea that Kara cheated on Sam (or Zak). It works, if Sam was... aware of it. But even then, I'm not ok with it. And if he was just talking shit about Kara? Yeah. Totally a bastard-like thing to do. But. It so worked.
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