lyssie | So. BSG. And Spoilers. And something's been bugging me.

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So. BSG. And Spoilers. And something's been bugging me.

There are about to be spoilers in this post for the last episode. It's, in the grand scheme, actually pretty minor a spoiler. But it is one, nonetheless.

In Portland, Katee Sackhoff dropped a minor spoiler about something that happens to her character. No, she doesn't die (again). No, she doesn't punch someone... Or blow things up or fly a viper into the sun, or-- She just ends up with someone.

Now large swathes of the internet are up in arms about it and calling for Katee's head because her personal behavior may have influenced the writers when they chose the direction of the story.

Which isn't really what I want to talk about.

I've had this sort of... disquiet? I don't think that's the right word, but I'll go with it... feeling of annoyance ever since the spoiler dropped and people started getting up in arms. Because, well, it's a pretty minor spoiler. It doesn't have to do with the plot, it really doesn't define Kara's character, and... and it's mostly about who she's fucking, not to put too fine a point on it.

And, really, I thought we were sort of past that, to seeing women as characters and people, not... as convenient vessels for the Perfect Man we want them with.

Right about now, you're all going (if you know the spoiler), "BUT, Lyssie, if it were Kara ending up with Lee, you'd so be ranting and bitching about it and--"

Well, yeah. But, to be honest, I sort of expect the show to end with Kara and Lee together romantically, as that's the predictable ending. More than one person has said academic stuff about narrative causality and closure and whatever, which ought to have bearing on it (even if I don't agree with it).

But that isn't really all I care about ~~ok, it sometimes is~~. I want explosions and people redeeming themselves and humans and Cylons facing hard truths and pilots and pilot culture and Racetrack and Dee and... But I sort of know I won't get most of that, either.

And if Katee's spoiler comment had been, "...that's why she ends up with Lee..." my reaction? Would not be "God, Katee's such a bitch, she's so fucking unprofessional, where does she get off!"

My reaction would, in fact (and may still), be, "God, Ron, you're such a hack."

I've gotten away from my original point. Sigh.

My point? Reducing Kara and her destiny and her viper and her piloting and her skills as a leader/renegade and what she is and who she is and everything about her as a person to "who owns Kara's vagina"?

Is kinda sexist.

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This!

Because as hesitantly hopeful I am that the spoiler is true, it's...totally not a major thing and it's REALLY not the point of the show. Who Kara is sleeping with is not why I watch, and finding out who she ends up with is not why i'll be watching Friday.

I just want to see a major 'final battle'. I want to see where they all end up, who lives, who dies, if they find a home. I want answers to all these dangling plot points. Kara ending up with Sam would be a bonus, that is all. If she ends up with Lee, I might bitch about how cliche it is, but other than that? I...really won't care. Because I love Kara (and all the others) as a character on her own merits, not because of who she's with.

I'm really starting to feel relieved that it's almost over.

I WANT EXPLOSIONS. I... I sort of babbled about that to Lizbeth the other day. I want explosions and airlocks and the women talking (ok, that's not going to happen), and people dying.

I mean. the implicit promise I saw in the mini was "IN THE END, ROCKS FALL, EVERYONE DIES."

And, dammit. I want that!

ME TOO. I mean, obviously there are people I want to live, but come on. This is sci fi! You're supposed to be at war! YOU HAVE GUNS AND SHIPS AND ALL SORTS OF OTHER WEAPONS, SO BLOW SOME SHIT UP ALREADY.

Honestly I think its the fans who've made the who Kara winds up with the bigger question than the show has actually made it. They've made her relationships important but its not really about who she is screwing, its about her actually growing up enough to give a shit about Anders even when he may never be able to give anything back. As the ChicagoTrib writer said if Kara is ever able to really love anyone its a major step and I think that's where the show is trying to go. I think the dumb Bamber Bunnie types who only want Kara to be Lee's booby prize are making it that way. Honestly I think Katee wouldn't have been able to talk RDM into changing anyway if he had been completely satisfied with that ending. I know he's smarter than that, so it wouldn't surprise me if he saw a lot of the same flaws we did. I don't think he's ever been completely satisfied of how Lee has turned out and I think RDM loves Starbuck to much to let her settle for second best.

I agree that the crazy Kara/Lee shippers are making the relationship or lack there of or future spoiler possibility way more important than the show.

Lee was never given any sort of decent characterization, sadly. That poor boy has been shoved all over the place. BSG is actually one of the few shows to fall down on characterization of the male of the species.

As I was visiting my parents the past couple months due to health issues, I convinced my father (who has similar tastes in media to mine) to finally watch some of BSG with me.

One of the things that doesn't make the show click for him is just that he remember the original, and it was so campy it hurts his head, kinda, to see this serious drama. Which I get, if roll my eyes at.

But the characterization of the men was something he nailed after only seeing most of the first eight episodes of this season. It drove him nuts, and it drives me nuts too. I like several of the male characters, but I still recognize the problem.

Dirk Benedict, the original Starbuck, was originally all for the re-imagining. But during/near the end of the first season, he wrote and essay about how the men on the show were all emasculated and the women all put into positions of domination over them. (And other things were in the essay too, of course. It's online in whole if anyone's curious.)

I do not agree with everything he wrote, obviously, but he did hit some of the nails on the head, and it makes me sort of sad to see that over the course of the series that part hasn't evolved more.

Two things.

1. Poor characterization does not equal emasculation (and the women are just as badly-drawn at times).

2. And I honestly cannot believe I'm saying this twice tonight: agreeing with a misogynistic asshole invalidates your argument.

1. This is true. (Both facts.) I am commenting on it as it was part of his argument, but was not the entire thing.

2. This is also why I said I did not agree with everything he wrote (and included the "obviously" for precisely that reason) and that it covered other things as well; a great deal of it was devoted to that, but he was also talking about characterization as being flat and taking gender-portrayals to extremes in various areas with many characters, or so I read the essay. My summary, in rereading was less clear than I had meant it to be, as I had meant to make it clear in my opinion the nail he hit on the head was that to me there does seem to be--in both genders, which is why I included the bit about how he viewed all women as being in roles of "domination" over the men, even if I find his views to be both extreme and offensive--a pattern in characterization on BSG where multiple members of one gender tend to be portrayed towards certain extremes, and become flat in the process, and multiple members of the other tend to be portrayed also towards a different extreme, and the characterization suffers in that way too.

My comment was unclear, and I do apologize for that. I would also like to make it clear that though I reference Benedict's essay to comment on one part of his observations in an essay, I do not at all agree with the vast majority of his views. As said, I found the majority of the essay to be offensive when it comes to how he viewed the men being "emasculated", how he called Sackhoff's Starbuck "Stardoe", and how he basically implied the women smoking cigars were basically being "the men." He does comment on other things as well--some of which are not offensive, one or two of which are insightful--but those parts of the essay were not relevant to this topic. I do not agree with the misogynistic asshole; I point out that even in his extreme and (imo) insane interpretation, he noticed part of the problem with characterization that I have found to be a problem with characterization I have with the show. While I have no problem and freely say I did not clearly phrase my comment, now that my argument has been restated clearly, I will also say that you are free (of course!) to disagree with my opinion on how there seem to be patterns of how the two genders are portrayed to (different) extremes which is part of what results in flat characterization, but referencing one point the man makes in an essay (while also saying that I do not agree with everything he wrote) and finding it accurate does not invalidate my argument. If I were to be saying that he hit the nail on the head by calling them all emasculated wimps, then my entire argument and stance would be invalidated and deservedly so. Finding him to have observed a pattern of characterization between genders that I also believe is there and commenting on that fact, however, is entirely different. I believe the difference especially comes from the part that makes him an asshole, which is where when he sees these portrayal issues, his automatic thought is women are being men, smoking cigars for the dicks they don't have, and the men are all castrated wusses.

I do not see it so. At all. And again, I will say that my first comment was far from clear in what I meant, and I apologize for that if only because it is pointless to make a comment if others don't understand it. And so I have done my best to restate it accurately here and make my argument as clear as possible.

You're going to have to forgive me, but I reiterate: Dirk Benedict is an asshole and bringing him into this? Is like Godwin's.

I don't honestly care what your point is or was, I'm pissed off that you had to reference that jackass in the first place, and think doing so loses you any credibility you had.

I strongly disagree--to me, it was an example of saying, "This guy is an asshole, but even he grasps the root of this thing I see as a problem, though his assholishness shows in this offensive way he interprets it"--but I also respect your view on the matter. And I sincerely apologize for pissing you off in your own LJ; I did not come to argue, only to read and join in a discussion, as I agreed entirely with your post and enjoy your BSG commentary and fic in general.

I will also say that the extent of my knowledge of Dirk Benedict is a) that he originally liked the new BSG and now dislikes it, and b) that article. He may have a greater reputation as a misogynist and an asshole in all sorts of ways that I am utterly unaware of; if so, then I apologize yet again, and say only that I spoke on what admittedly little I knew/know of the man.

*blinks* You've seen that little bit they did back in the beginning, the "starbucks at starbucks" thing, right? He spent the whole thing leering at her and trying to get her phone number. When asked about her at conventions, he calls her a giggly airhead.

In a recent interview, he claimed that women in Hollywood were keeping him from getting jobs because he reminded them of old boyfriends. Or something.

I don't ever remember seeing a response from him that wasn't tinged with hatred of the new series, so I don't know where the idea that he liked it comes from. And if he did, his reasons for disliking it are not because he saw narrative difficulties.

*stares* I'd say, "Are you serious?" except I know you are. God. No. I haven't seen the interview, except for maybe five seconds of it where he handed her a cigar. I think I tried to load it on youtube once, but it wasn't working well. I just didn't care enough to try again later. I only knew it happened at all because I read about it on it wikipedia, I think. I was trying to find out more about the character of Tom Zarek around his death and came across the Starbucks-meeting info in reading some about Hatch and some Hatch interviews online at various sites. On one of them that I was looking at, Hatch's initial attitude towards the series compared to Benedict's initial attitude, that Hatch hated it and Benedict supported it, and how each then switched sides and Benedict'd written an article criticizing the show. The only thing I looked up after that was a link to the essay. I had no interest in Benedict himself, as I've never seen anything with him in it and didn't care to; the only other thing I can think of that I saw related to BSG and him at all was that he had attended some cons and talked to fans about things, but there wasn't anything of real interest to me in it.

That was all I knew about him, barring that he's been on Big Brother; if I had known this, I would not have referenced him at all, but the brief description I had read of the Starbucks' meeting portrayed it as having been a positive experience enjoyed by both actors and that Benedict fully supported the show, his opinion only changing after seeing how the first season unfolded. That also influenced my reading of his essay.

My apologies, again, and very sincerely; I had never heard anything about his behavior of this sort, and the impression I had gained from the little I read--which was obviously very biased, at the least--was that his major issue with the show was narrative-related. I found his article to be misogynistic and offensive in parts, yes, but I had no idea that he went to this extent, and I interpreted others parts of the article based on the misinformation I had read to be referring more to the narrative and character-portrayals. Knowing this now, I suspect if I were to reread it now--which I'm not, because I don't need to be annoyed by it again while finding no redeeming features--I would not take things to be commentary and/or referring to the narrative and writing style of BSG as I did on the first read.

I love you.

<3

Yes, but what if I dissolve into madness after the finale?

(deleted comment)

Here's a link to the vid, I think. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YTOM0fxcZs&feature=channel

(deleted comment)

Ah. Yup.

You know, that implicit promise stuff always cracks my shit up, since it's not where the characters have been heading for a season and a half.

I will say that I thought Starbuck and Apollo ending up together was an implicit promise made in the miniseries

Every story has to have a happy ending?

As for the "who owns Kara Thrace's vagina"

I think Lyssie's point was that it's a really stupid question. And I agree.

(deleted comment)

It... makes me want to shoot rabid shippers, in all honesty. Like, the Sam/Jack shippers who constantly whined about how the PTB had PROMISED the show would end Sam/Jack, and organized letter campaigns and would go on and on about how they were entitled to their ending?

That's how Kara/Lee shippers read to me.

Flip it and the same can be said for the Jack/Daniel shippers, or the Rodney/Sheppard shippers in SGA.

There's a reason I've been very careful not to go around saying, "we deserve the payoff of Sam and Kara staying married." There's a reason I was gleefully shocked as hell in season three when my prediction that they would still be together was proved right.

All that aside, obviously, we should organize a letter-writing campaign and an internet petition. ;]

I completely agree with you that the focus of the entire finale should not be on who Kara ends up with. That said, as a diehard shipper myself, I can understand the disappointment and frustration that one experiences if your couple doesn't end up together...HOWEVER...

I don't think the K/L shippers should be blaming Katee for this. While she may've had some influence over the storyline, her decision wasn't based on "well, I just really like this relationship more". Her decision was based on what she thought was best for her character and I think it's an actor's duty to step up and fight for that, even if they don't win.

So, anyway, I understand the sadness one feels when things don't go their way but I don't think the actors should be blamed for it...And I don't think it should be the only thing taken away from an entire series, especially one with so many complex characters and storylines.

I can, like, understand it if I try hard? But since I never expected Kara and Sam to end up together (or Kara and Leoben), I really can't put myself in their shoes. The closest I can come is Elizabeth Weir getting killed off in Stargate: Atlantis and how that wrecked Weir/Sheppard.

Which can, technically, be blamed on Torri H. for daring to question why the women on the show never talked and why there wasn't a single woman in the writing room.

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Because whiny white men hold the cards there, and women don't watch SF.?

I mean, I know there was that minor implosion a couple months ago when that dude said women don't like superhero movies. But I keep getting told that women who like That Sort of Thing are in a tiny tiny minority, so they aren't a viable market.

And women write about relationships, not space opera. tsk. Or they write acceptably about boy wizards.

I had to do a double-take. This is almost exactly the sort of thing [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com] would say. Including the all-caps.

You guys should fix that. The snark and hot kickass women with guns would be epic.

I'll uh, cheer you on from the sidelines? I have pompoms and know how to use them!

You can run our fanboard and kick people for posting smutty manips.

There is. It's just not being made into a movie or tv show. (Yet. I hope yet. But then again, it hasn't actually been published yet, either. And no, it's not anything I'm writing, just in case you were wondering. :P)

Gods...I miss Elizabeth...Sheppard/Weir was my SGA OTP...:(

thank you!

hee. You're welcome.

I have nothing to add besides APPLAUSE.

My point? Reducing Kara and her destiny and her viper and her piloting and her skills as a leader/renegade and what she is and who she is and everything about her as a person to "who owns Kara's vagina"?

Is kinda sexist.

Especially to this part.

Amen. *makes face at rabid shippers* I want some resolution for Lee and Kara's relationship, but I don't feel that has to be resolution romantically; I'm happy to just feel their friendship is given something like resolution or some form of address.

I want some resolution for Lee and Kara's relationship, but I don't feel that has to be resolution romantically; I'm happy to just feel their friendship is given something like resolution or some form of address.

That's exactly how I feel. It would suck if that relationship had just been dropped, but I don't understand people who feel entitled to a particular endgame.

That last bit was the part that'd been nagging me all weekend and I finally hit on WHY. And... it kinda makes me sad.

I said the same thing in

wisteria_s journal. Only, you know, not as pithily.

ETA: Not my night, apparently!

Edited 2009-03-18 23:58 (UTC)

*scritches* It's ok!

THIS. God, yes. SO FRAKKING TIRED

[oops]

of people whose entire fannish opinion hinges on who's sleeping with whom.

I was just awake enough to assume the rest of that. *g*

Edited 2009-03-18 23:49 (UTC)

*clings*

*clingsback*

well said.

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So. BSG. And Spoilers. And something's been bugging me.

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