I didn't just watch Red Cap, yesterday, I watched some Supernatural, too.

[lyssie]

I don't know, is season two still considered an "OMG SPOILERCUT"? Eh.

I was watching to meet the Harvelles.

1. I'm not in SPN fandom, but I've read enough on the fringes to get the distinct impression that women on the show are horribly written. Imagine my surprise when Jo and Ellen are complex, interesting characters. Is it that the writers later decide to be lazy, since the fandom hates vaginas?

2. The clown episode was seriously difficult to believe. WTF are people teaching their kids if they let clowns in after dark? Seriously? SERIOUSLY? Clowns are strangers, and you don't talk to strangers or LET THEM IN THE HOUSE... I knew that when I was THREE.

3. So. No one has ever mentioned that Sam is 'special'. A DEMON KILLED HIS MAMA. And he has POWERS. AHAHAHAH. right.

4. Don't take this the wrong way, but Dean and Sam are intensely boring. The Simon Says episode? Yeah, I skipped the entire thing. Partly because I've seen that episode of the X-Files and partly because dear GOD did I not CARE. Even the hilarity of Dean losing the car wasn't enough to make me interested in Sam's Manly Angst about killing people (I guess demons, ghouls and ghosts don't count...)

5. Seriously, why did they dump the Harvelles? They added a really interesting mix to the story, almost a reflection on the boys and their daddy. Watching Jo go from amateur to fully-competent hunter would have also been awesome.

6. So, in No Exit, it's established that the serial killer ghost hasn't really killed a lot... I wonder why? Were there just that few tiny blonde women in the building over the years? Also, I'm not sure it's exactly believable that he hauled them down through the walls. I know. He's a ghost, believability should not be my concern. It's just--if he liked terrorizing women so much, why so few?

7. Why doesn't Ellen like Sam? She can barely stand to look at the boy, and there's that one clip aj showed me where she hugs Dean, but again, ignores Sam.

8. Jo/Dean. She's snarky and mocks the hell out of him. He thinks she's hot, but her mama scares him. ...yeah, I can see how she's just a 'little sister' *sarcasm* (I think the best bit, which I should re-watch, 'cause I may have misheard, was where Dean implied he was scum, and Jo didn't disagree with him)

Comments

[karate0kat.livejournal.com]

HARVELLE LOVE!

I do not understand the complaints about the Harvelle's at all. Well, actually, most of the complaints are against Jo (gee, the potential love interest gets the hate, *shocking*). I guess some people found her annoying and immature. I'm with you, I wanted to see her growth from amateur to competent.

It's interesting that you see the reflection between the Harvelle's and Sam/Dean/their dad. When you get to season 4 and get the full backstory (that the writers pulled out of their asses) for Mary Winchester, she and Jo are so similar it's uncanny. Of course, just don't try to make that comparison to a Jo hater. They will eat your face.

[karate0kat.livejournal.com]

I loved knowing she was a badass and seeing her toss Dean around, but I could never quite decide if the fact that 'ole Yellow Eyes was there because of her made it better or worse. On the one hand, at least she was an active participant, on the other, it's all her fault? Really? Meh.

So basically, I loved the first half of the backstory, not so much the second.

[karate0kat.livejournal.com]

Which is a good point, I just have so little good will when it comes to how the writers present women on this show that I never really give them the benefit of the doubt.

We should just always blame things on Sucky John. I personally blame Hitler on Sucky John. Just because.

[bluediamond421.livejournal.com]

Yeah, when I first saw that episode I didn't think they were trying to say it was all Mary's fault, I was more focused on the endless chain of Winchesters making deals with demons to save each other. (But, what can I say, I was an optimist. That was before they killed off Ruby and Jo and Ellen, though.)

[sabaceanbabe.livejournal.com]

It's not so much that the women themselves are written poorly, it's that they always, ALWAYS come to a bad end. I love Jo, Ellen, Bela, and several other one-shots. Most of the people saying they're poorly written, in my limited experience ('cause I sooooooooo don't hang out in SPN fandom), has been people who just hate them because they get in the way of their ship or they get in the way of Mary Suing themselves with one of the boys.

[mfirefly10.livejournal.com]

THIS. Exactly this. Explained much better than I ever could:)

1. I think many of the female characters were written as compelling, complex characters. Part of the problem was pointed out by sabaceanbabe. The other part is that the writers never gave the female characters any real significance in the mythology of the series. There were always there to be hot and snarky and then disappear so we could get back to the 'important' stuff. *sighs*

2. THIS. Granted, I'm biased because I think clowns are evil (and I LOL when Sam agreed with me) but that made no sense to me. I wonder if the kids would've let the demon in had it appeared in its true form. My guess is...yep, they probably would've.

3. *chuckles*

4. I can partially agree with this. I found most of the female characters to be WAY more interesting than the boys. That said, the boys do have their moments, Dean especially. I really liked his arc in season 3.

5. I have no idea...I didn't start watching this show until the summer before the 4th season so I missed the live run of season 2 and never understood why the Harvelles disappeared. Unlike many of the later season female characters, I thought Jo & Ellen fit perfectly into the world of the show and always wished the writers had kept them around full-time. Unfortunately, the writers seemed to agree with Ellen & the fandom that Jo wouldn't make a good hunter...even though we'd never seen any evidence to support that claim. From everything I saw on-screen, I thought Jo would've made one hell of a hunter. Go figure...

6. Never made sense to me, either:)

7. I don't remember if there was ever a reason given for Ellen's reaction to Sam in season 2. In later seasons, I think Sam's actions led to Ellen's feelings toward him.

8. Why the majority of the fandom didn't recognize the pure awesomeness of Jo/Dean is beyond me. Then again, I'm a sucker for snark and ass-kicking so these two just appealed to me right from the start:)

[timjr.livejournal.com]

The answer to 'why did they get dumped' is entirely based on the general revulsion the vocal fanbase had to recurring vaginas on their precious woobie boy show.

No, seriously, I've read where Kripke admits they pulled Jo at least partially due to the fan reaction...

[rodlox.livejournal.com]

was Kripke being serious when he said that?

[noybusiness.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid so. "We tried something and it didn't work" kind of thing. Aargh.

[meresy.livejournal.com]

1. I loved Ellen and Jo. Especially Ellen, because she gave Dean grief all the time (as one should.) And I think the bad feelings were due to both things: fandom being insane and the writers not being sure what to do with them now that they'd written them (of course, that's hardly limited to supporting females. They've fumbled Sam badly, too, IMO.)

2. SRSLY. Maybe the evil clown has dumb-kid mind-control?

5. See again: no idea what to do with characters once they establish them. Story arc fail!

7. Reminds her of John too much?

8. I think the writers were trying to protect THEMSELVES with that one. For my part, Jo/Dean could be total good times. She'd kick his ass.

The show handles the women badly, but I've never got the idea they were bad characters themselves. I liked Jess, I liked Sarah, I liked Cassie. I liked RUBY (and I wiiiish they hadna made her all betraying-evil. ARGH.)

I did hate Bela, though. Even when I felt sorry for her at the end. SO ANNOYING. But I figured that was the idea of her. Never liked Meg, either, but I think that was a beef with the original actress' mannerisms.

Ellen is still the most awesome, though.

[bluediamond421.livejournal.com]

1) Is it that the writers later decide to be lazy, since the fandom hates vaginas? - Yes. This. I will never not believe it was this. For all of them.

4) I wouldn't call them intensely boring, but I have always found them a LOT more interesting when they were not on their own just the two of them. (See also: I loved Ruby)

5) Watching Jo go from amateur to fully-competent hunter would have also been awesome.
Yesssss. This. *long sad sigh*

7) *cough*Sam is every demon's favorite puppet*cough* *goes back to sulking over Ruby's retconny conclusion*

8) Dean/Jo would have easily been the show's most awesome ship, if the show had real ships, and that had been one of them. But yeah, what meresy said, they were protecting themselves from the insane women-hating Wincest fans. I'm telling you....same writers, whooole different premise, that is what we need. (If I ever find that alternate-universe, I'm staying, 'cause I do like SPN, but it could have been sooooo much better.)

[rihansu.livejournal.com]

4. OMG YES! I bugged out early on because I couldn't get over the fact that those two are giant charisma vacuums and the plots all felt like recycled X-files or Buffy. At least the decent episodes did.

[wishfulaces.livejournal.com]

From what I understand, the fannish reaction to Jo especially was horrible. Or at least, the most vocal fannish reaction. (Me, I kinda loved Jo, and don't get me started on how it goes for her & Ellen. Also, ELLEN ROCKS. Like, dude, I would always have her on my side. And drink in her bar.)

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Sigh. Depressed again.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Does it help if I tell you I sort of accidentally killed Sam instead of the Harvelles?

[aj.livejournal.com]

?

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I was trying to work out how to re-write that episode while still keeping the desperate, emotional resonance of "THIS IS SERIOUS, Y'ALL", and it works if Sam gets ripped up defending Jo who's defending Dean while Ellen tries not to facepalm.

[aj.livejournal.com]

Ellen should really just spend most of her life facepalming. It'd save time.

[amathela.livejournal.com]

Jo and Ellen! ♥ If they'd actually stuck around full time (or, hell, even part time), I might actually watch Supernatural.