lyssie | BSG meta: Sam Anders, marriage, etc.

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BSG meta: Sam Anders, marriage, etc.

Will contain spoilers through Taking a Break, read at own risk, etc.

1. Sam Anders is not weak, a pushover, or stupid for marrying the woman he loves.
2. Sam Anders is none of the above for wanting his marriage to last. And he's certainly not an idiot for trying to keep his wife, even at the cost of her fidelity.
3. Lee Adama is not stupid for wanting his marriage to last, either.
4. Anastasia Dualla does not deserve everything that's happening to her, just because she broke Billy's heart. She certainly doesn't deserve it for any OTHER reason, either.
5. Billy Keikeya would bitch-slap all of you for hating on her.

Let's turn this around, shall we?

Kara married Lee, and is now attempting to cheat on him with Sam. Is Lee stupid for marrying Kara, even though she lusts/loves another man?
Is Lee stupid for trying to keep his marriage together?

Oh, wait, am I hearing loud shouts of NO from the K/L shippers? Gosh. Color me surprised.

Kara married Lee, and now Lee's cheating on her with Dee. Does Kara deserve to be cheated on for marrying Lee when Sam asked her first and she broke his heart?

Although, I'm sure you'll all tell me that reversing it doesn't work, since Kara doesn't really love Sam. And Lee doesn't really love Dee.

And that whole spending months planning and plotting and trying desperately to get back to Caprica for Sam? Yeah. That was just 'cause Kara keeps her word. Yup. The tattoos? They were drunk. Marrying him? To run away from Lee and the Fabulous Future they would have as Lee and the little woman. Continuing to have sex with him, when she could easily have sex with anyone else on the ship? Well, he's convenient, and he knows how to hit certain spots. Warning him that she wants to hurt him? You always give a guy a chance to run before you cut his balls off.

Whichever religion you subscribe to: Kara/Anders, Kara/Lee, Kara/Leoben, Kara/Anyone but all three? Get your thumbs out of your asses and stop being idiots.

Marriage is not some pass to Happy Bunny Land, wherein you and your partner are magically and forever in sync. Frankly, if Kara and Lee were to actually get married, I think she'd get bored with him inside six months, and he'd be frustrated by her lack of commitment to their marriage vows. I don't think they would have matching tattoos.

Also, I don't think Lee's ego is big enough to combat Kara's. She'd run over him in days, wherea Sam has one hell of an ego that comfortably jostles hers. (please see Hand of God and Resistance--and Home and The Farm, come to think of it)

Moving on, let me restate: Sam Anders is not stupid for marrying the woman he loves and sticking by her, even when she strays. He. Loves. Her. That means, all the shit she pulls, and the crap she does, he's there and constant. He believes in her, he thinks that she needs to be her own person. He accepts that she is never going to change and deals with it.

He walks back into her life, in TaB, with a plan. He's going to get his marriage back.

Do I think he's coldly calculating? No.

I think he went with an agenda, though. And he thought he'd wait until after the sex to talk--which, honestly, can you blame the man? And if Kara kicked him out for trying to talk about their marriage, then he'd just leave. But she didn't.

She mocks him, with her accommodating line. And while she's right, he doesn't let it pass. The comment about her Destiny? Some of that might have been because he had been thinking about it, but I think some was because there's still an edge between them.

And then, because she laughs, he answers her question.

It's really very simple. He's accommodating because he wants their marriage to work. They've gone through so much, and he's not going to just let her go.

And, yes, in the short term, he let her go. He said, "go to Lee. Find out wtf is up there, and if it works? Fine. If it doesn't, I'm still gonna be here, Kara."

The latter, especially, is reinforced by him telling her he loves her. Which, in itself, isn't something she hears often--sure, Lee said it a couple times. But Lee was never able to get under the Starbuck glare until he'd frakked her, and even then, it didn't really work.

And Sam isn't expecting to hear it back. He's just letting her know.

Lee always seems to need to hear it back, when he says it. Lee seems to want her to be this one Great Love Thing. He 'gets' Kara, apparently, despite the fact that he generally fails at understanding her or even having a clue what makes her tick.

Sam, otoh, wants her to be her. He gets her, he knows how to get past the facade and poke at the woman underneath. Sometimes, he gets it wrong. But he generally gets it right. And he loves her, no matter what. He's tried to let her go and can't--and he has a point. He didn't survive all those months waiting for her, just to decide he doesn't love her. And, dammit, he didn't survive four months being a terrorist while trying to find her to let HER give up, either.

Not only that, they've TRIED the separate thing. LOOK HOW WELL IT'S GONE. She calls him for quickies.

The first time (though I don't think it was the first) that we see them post-sex after their 'break-up', she's not fast enough at getting out of the room--and I also think she really was planning on going to the dance, and the sex took the edge off--anyway.

So. The first time, Sam tried to bring up their marriage, and she wasn't ready. Not really. All she wanted to do was slam the door on him and run.

This time?

Kara was expecting Sam to say something about their marriage, and she, half-heartedly, tried to head it off with that comment about him being accommodating... There's a resignation to her, though, as if she's expecting him to push and being ready to ignore the push--or, just perhaps, she's almost ready for their marriage again. Except that he ambushes her with Destiny, and the cold facts: neither of them survived just to give up on their marriage. Also? If she loves Lee, she should go to him.

We can only assume that when Sam said, "Hey, go to him," her brain went, "...but I don't want Lee forever. And if I go, and if he says yes, I'm frakked." But she still wanted to see if that's what he wanted. So she went, and he snarked at her and his reply told her exactly what she'd figured: that he would make her kill him within a year of getting married. So she didn't push.

Although, damnit, I want to see the scene where she called up Sam and said, "Yeah. So. Not leaving you."

But then, I want the scene where she tells Sam about Leoben, too. So... sigh.

And I want to know if she's told LEE about Leoben or not. Sadly, thanks to Ron's preferences, I'm pretty sure we'll get to see THAT scene before we ever see the Kara and Sam scene.

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You feel better now, don't you? (HEE.) I need a misses his wife icon.

Kinda. This is what happens when I poke the Skiffy boards.

I learned my lesson with the tf.n boards...

heh. and, er, here. (like this one?)

(http://photobucket.com/)

YES JUST LIKE THAT ONE!!!1! Thanks!

You posted at TF.N? I mod a board at TF.N.

Yeah, long time ago. I don't think I was ever teased or mocked or anything like that, but the ferosity with which a lot of the fanboys post with scared me off. I mostly hung around the ff posts. But I'm a fickle mistress to fandom and I'm sure something else caught my attention and I drifted away. May have to go over for old time's sake...

I happen to like both Lee/Kara (or I used to before the writers messed it up) and Kara/Sam. Do I think she loves them both? Yes.

She is always going to be tangled with Lee in some fashion: they have too much between them: the fact that they were almost family at one point, that they were such good friends for a long time etc etc. (I'd also add that they were both treated as children by Adama but Kara as Adama's daughter seems to have fallen down a hole like so many other things in the show).

This said, people who claim Kara doesn't love Anders are just...what show are they watching? She. Loves. Him. She went back to Caprica for him, she seems to want to come back to him in whatever frakked up capacity she can manage, over and over. She trusted him enough to tell him about Leoben. So on so forth. She even said she loves/hates him.

And ultimately, as much as I used to love Kara/Lee, there is no question that Kara/Sam are a lot more viable in the long term and healthier. In part because Sam is much more laid back and willing to take what Kara can give as opposed to wanting more, wanting everything, something he will never have. Now, it isn't a bad thing that Lee wants 'everything' of Kara, things she isn't willing to give. I don't think one way of loving is superior over another. But the point is, for emotionally scarred Kara, she cannot open up and give like this. Not to Lee or anyone. And the pushing would get her very frustrated and make her panic.

Sam is a lot healthier for her. Maybe because they don't have the long frakked up history. Maybe because he seems mentally healthier than Lee (once again, not bashing Lee. I find FUBAR characters very interesting). He can deal with Kara's issues because he has a greater base of stability to start from.

Kara clearly cannot keep away from Lee, in whatever capacity (see Unfinished Business). But no more can she let Sam go. Does it make either L/K or S/K an undying love story? No. I got Farscape for that, anyway. But it makes for a good complicated story.

Kara/Sam are a lot more viable in the long term and healthier. In part because Sam is much more laid back and willing to take what Kara can give as opposed to wanting more, wanting everything, something he will never have.

I think this speaks to why Helo and Kara seem to be such good friends, too. Helo accepts her as she is and doesn't try to change her, which is exactly what Sam is doing. Sam is not only willing to let Kara be Kara, he WANTS her to be Kara, flaws and all.

And, see, I've never ever understood the part where Kara and Lee were the Best of Friends. Acquaintances, yes. Friends by necessity, yes. Best Friends Forever and Ever?

...who don't talk for two years.

Yup. That's what I'd call that.

That would go to them being almost family in their friendship. My grandmother didn't talk to her sister for a decade over god-knows-what. And then they made up and that was it and it's as if the breach has never been.

I think that would go to the notion they really can't stay apart if they are in the vicinity of each other. Look at Unfinished Business. Or the mini. Or Captain's Hand. When there is a fight, however bad, they seem to need to make up.

But YMMV may vary, of course. It's just to me it has never been implausible. It's clear Lee is very emotionally important to Kara (and so is Anders, duh :D), but I doubt he is the be all and end all of her existence, and it's mixed in with a whole lot of bagage :D Thank God or that way lies fruity beverage fic.

Ahh. Booze.

Anyway!

It is kind of a YYMV, and kind of a "Fandom, stop dictating how I see things!" thing. And also sheer perversity.

I want to like the friendship between them, but fandom makes me hate it (see also: my love for Rodney McKay and John Sheppard and Jack O'Neill and Daniel Jackson getting eroded by fandom). Oddly, Kara is one of the few to escape this... As is Sam. And Aeryn. (aha. Sensing a trend. I like the wimmens, but the men can go hang--and I am way off the original subject now.)

And, actually, I'd just like BSG to give us more of people being FRIENDS. I like talking heads. I like explosions. Over-wrought Angst and Dramuh bore me. Mostly. ~~Except when Sam is involved.~~

Yay! Youve said it well. I feel for her, she was stuck between two men who love her, that she loves in return. Bad spot for any girl. After TAB, I cant picture her with Lee anymore, he has too many problems and a distinct inability to act like an adult. Sam on the other hand, he's been an adult the entire time.

Sam is who Lee wants to be, and so Kara (lucky girl she is) ends up with a man she loves and ALSO with the man that her other love wants to be.

Awesome post. Kara and Sam are good for each other. They SHOULD be together, dammit.

Now, that being said, how are you with an OT4 consisting of Sam/Kara/Helo/Sharon? *glares at

raincitygirl*

....Too many arms.

Well, some of them might tie it behind their backs :P

That could work. But. Dude, the logistics of a threesome is hard enough. With four, you've got four pairs of arms, four pairs of genitalia, and countless tongues, other body parts and, how does that all fit together? We're talking Roman orgy, here!

Two words: circle jerk.

*I can't believe I just typed that* :D

Well, I didn't want to be the first to say it... ;)

WORD

I could read that.

There's a certain type of shipper that will never change, isn't there? They just move from fandom to fandom.

The only thing I want to do in this big mess is shake Dee and tell her she deserves better. At least Kara obviously loves Anders. I totally didn't believe Lee in his little speech to Dee. I just want to grab that girl and take her out for a drink and introduce her to someone who will be the man she deserves.

I'll help. I think I've even found reinforcements for you. Lots of people seem to think Dee was a total idiot. And she is. Why would you EVER settle for being second choice???

YES. And, sadly, I still think Jaka is scarier. (speaking of which, if I ever actually post the words, "Kara/Lee makes me sick to my stomach" if you DO NOT IMMEDIATELY SMACK ME and demand to know if I'm a pod person, I will be saddened. And possibly drunk.)

I just wish they'd made Lee's obsessions (with duty, love, etc) more rounded! ~~Or that the writers knew what to do with him~~.

I shall start shipping Dee/Leoben, at this rate...

I don't want to know what prompted this, do I? No, I'm sure I don't.

Y'know I agree with every single little word. Even "the" and "of"!

Although I think the "if you love him, then go to him" was even more significant to her. Because this was him releasing her. She was getting permission to be absolutely free again. And then she didn't like it as much as she thought she would, especially when he laid the "I love you" on her. Because, being free would mean she also wouldn't get that any more too.

So then she went to Lee, to find out if he meant what he'd said in the Raptor. And found out he didn't. So she shut the door on that path (I HOPE AND PRAY), and went back to Sam, who is the only person who really does love her unconditionally and you're right, has the ego to give-and-take with her.

Buncha little things, and then Skiffy boards, and, omg. No. You don't.

YAY.

Well, yes. Being free wasn't what she wanted at all, apparently. It was ok when the freedom was on HER terms, though. When she was the one pushing.

(if so, I will wonder if Ron got bitchslapped a lot)

Seriously. Her ego is, like, massive. (pyramid as foreplay, ftw, as always)

epp. bedimte! *runs*

But the freedom before wasn't really free, because she wouldn't divorce. But yeah, she was pushing. Her behavior with Sam, now that I think about it, reminds me a lot of my toddler, testing the boundaries. 'okay, I'm going to tell you to go away, are you still gonna love me?' 'Now I'm going to treat you like my personal boy toy, still gonna love me? Now I'm going to frak Lee, still gonna love me? Then finally we got to the "Then go to him -- AND I'LL STILL LOVE YOU." There was no limit. And she got to Lee and found out, oops, there's a limit.

The more I think about it the more brilliant that scene with Sam is. (even if TWOP doesn't get it, at all *sigh*).

And it makes perfect sense that Kara would be that kind of immature in an adult relationship, based on what we've seen of her personality and backstory and Lee has that same kind of immaturity going on. Sam? Sam ain't no little boy. He's all man, baby. Yes.

word. yes. which is why imagining the two of them together makes my head spin. I know some K/L people like it because it's a screwed up train wreck of a relationship, but that's not my thing. Lee's got some mommy/women issues that I can't quite figure out, and I think they would play out very unpleasantly if he and Kara were together full time.

But Sam... he's definitely not stuck at age 12. *ogles wallpaper* Nope.

Now I have Austin Powers in my head. "Sam Anders? He's all MAN, baby! Does he make you horny? Does he?"

(deleted comment)

I'm actually okay with not seeing all the conversations between Sam and Kara about New Caprica because it implies intimacy between them, which I like.

This is true. It also means I don't have to go, "...and, there's another conversation they've written in canon." and chuck a fic.

My love is not short. But. Short, short version: she's hot, awesome, bright, a chick (which, I should put a disclaimer in about my fanaticism towards female characters), doesn't take shit from people, and is one of the few characters I can point at and go, "Look! Someone grew organically, with no reset buttons!" on BSG.

Sadly TWoP didn't get the brilliance of that scene, but since I have other issues with the TWoP recap, I'll leave that rant for my journal. And Skiffy...I gave up going there.

Not much else for me to say that hasn't been said already so I'll just say WORD. I do want to smack Ron though for not giving us Kara's POV. I realize Lee needed his drunk "light bulb" moment when he finally got the clue. But dammit would it have been too much to see Kara/Sam have the "not leaving" talk.

please rant away on the recap, because I feel the need as well, and reading yours would probably take the edge off.

Mine would begin: "1. Those are NOT Lee 'Apollo' Adama's Frakkin dog tags!" And it gets progressively more ranty from there.

It's up. I feel much better now.

Last time I checked, Lee's dog tags were around his neck. I'm sorry Jacob, but Kara has a dog tag, singular. Sam's tag is still in her locker, and better find its way back to him soon.

Lee.... wha? Do I want to know? Lizbeth, is this gonna make me want to be ranty?

Jacob's recap got Lizbeth and I both ranty. So yes, you'll want to be ranty too.

Jesus, does Jacob ever shut the fuck up--or engage in shorter sentences?

That was five minutes of my life I kinda want back.

And, seriously. WTF? Lee's tags? WHERE WOULD SHE HAVE GOTTEN THEM? Was there a sekrit ceremony where they traded?

I stay away from places like twop. Ever since I half-read one of their Farscape recaps and was like, "....not watching the same show. Obviously."

I don't think they would have matching tattoos.
heh. can you see lee in a tattoo parlor?

I mean, yes to everything else as well, but especially that. I think it perfectly illustrates how different being married to lee would be.

I... really can't see Lee with a tattoo.

I have this really scary image of Kara in a frilly 50's housewife outfit. that's what my brain says being married to Lee would be.

She would rip out his trachea before she'll let that happen.

I am not a fan of Sam and Kara in part because I think she ran from Lee to Sam in part beacuse she and Sam didnt have the history-Zac... that she and Lee do. I dont think kara and Lee would work as the traditional happily married couple but they could be in a committed relationship. But on the flip side Sam appears to be a much more grounded person when compared to Lee.Lee has to many issues to work through-mainly stemming from his realtionship with his father,his perceived role in life, and as always kara.

As for Dee-I think she was a fool for marrying a man who was clearly in love with someone else. Not the best place to start a marriage.

I LOVE YOU FOR THIS.

Seriously. In a major way. Not only have you defended my ship from its constant beating, you've also analyzed scenes I didn't quite get and helped me understand better. I never really thought about the way that Kara goes back to Sam for their "quickies," how she obviously could've gone to anyone, and how knowing Kara of COURSE she pretends it doesn't mean anything when it clearly does.

Some of the things I think you express really well and get spot on?

Sam has one hell of an ego that comfortably jostles hers.

Sam is perfectly comfortable with himself in a way that Lee is not. When Kara tosses an insult at him or dismisses him he doesn't get all "oh no she doesn't love meeee!" but instead throws one right back at her and makes it playful. Whereas Lee, because of his own personal demons, goes spare at any hint of rejection.

Lee always seems to need to hear it back, when he says it. Lee seems to want her to be this one Great Love Thing. He 'gets' Kara, apparently, despite the fact that he generally fails at understanding her or even having a clue what makes her tick.

Lololol. ALWAYS. Lee does NOT get Kara, at all. His face, when Sam says "you're not the first"?? Cracks me up every time. Even in "Maelstrom," when Kara says she's not going back in her Viper...he just doesn't get it. He doesn't get how much it would take for Kara to make that kind of decision. I assume he figured it was the kind of insecurity he suffers from, which...hello. Not Kara's problem.

Sam, otoh, wants her to be her. He gets her, he knows how to get past the facade and poke at the woman underneath. Sometimes, he gets it wrong. But he generally gets it right. And he loves her, no matter what. He's tried to let her go and can't--and he has a point. He didn't survive all those months waiting for her, just to decide he doesn't love her. And, dammit, he didn't survive four months being a terrorist while trying to find her to let HER give up, either.

Not only that, they've TRIED the separate thing. LOOK HOW WELL IT'S GONE. She calls him for quickies.

Yes, I had to quote that whole passage. Because that's why I love you. Again, not only do you perfectly express what I've felt, you added to my understanding--no way is Sam going to give up on their relationship, even when she beats on him on the Demetrius.

But the most important point of all?

he thinks that she needs to be her own person.

WORD. Lee wants to own Kara; he wants her to be his other half (and vice versa). Kara is too strong of a person, too independent to be anyone's other half. That's just not her style, and no matter how much Lee pushes for it, it ain't going to happen. Sam just wants to hang out with her because she's awesome, and two awesome, similar, sympathetic people should hang out. It just makes sense. <3

*laughs* My main mission in life, especially during season two and three (when you could count the Kara/Sam fans on two hands), was to meta/write as much as possible about the crazy kids.

Sam is perfectly comfortable with himself in a way that Lee is not

To be fair to Lee, the writers really sucked at writing him. I think I said, somewhere else, that Sam was never considered the Hero, so he got to be a real person who wasn't screwed with a lot.

I assume he figured it was the kind of insecurity he suffers from, which...hello. Not Kara's problem.

*nods* I never really think about it much, since Maelstrom isn't an episode I watch a lot of (I'll watch the Kara/Sam scene and usually turn it off), as some of the character notes make me throw things.

even when she beats on him on the Demetrius.

I KNOW THIS IS HARD. But you should watch that scene again, she's shoving him, yes, and verbally saying cutting things, but I'm pretty sure if Sam felt beaten and abused he'd be running far away ~~even if he thinks, as a Cylon, he deserves it~~.

Er, there's also the part where he pins her down (which got a few cries of "omg spousal abuse" on Kara's behalf).

The thing that always always gets me about the whole "he had sex with her, that makes him weak/pushover/doormat" is that everyone seems to forget KARA WAS DEAD.

I don't know about you, but even if we were pissed off and fighting, if my SO came back from the dead, I'd be hitting that like there was no tomorrow.

*coughs*

And, also, they're using each other on the Demetrius. As much as Kara's using him as an outlet, Sam's using her, trying to connect with her/keep his own humanity.

Kara is too strong of a person, too independent to be anyone's other half.

Yep.

That doesn't mean she and Sam don't do the non-verbal thing. It's a heart-breaking moment, but when Kara rescues him in BotS, they both immediately go for guns, and I still flail. BECAUSE THAT RIGHT THERE. That whole "WE ARE NOT TALKING, BUT WE ARE STILL BACKING EACH OTHER TO THE HILT" thing?

I am suuuuuch a sucker for it.

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BSG meta: Sam Anders, marriage, etc.

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