(is this where I say 'meta' or something?)

[lyssie]

This post has been sitting in my feb15 catch-all text file for probably a month. I keep forgetting it's there, and so don't post it. Now I've noticed it again. I don't think I've managed to say all I wanted to say, sadly.

Mostly, it's a continuation of the conversation about female characters.

It's not a competition.

1. No matter the fandom, there's always some sort of friction between fans of the female characters. One is better than the other, one got the guy, one got the destiny, they were friends/weren't friends, etc. If you like one of them, you can't like the other--in most cases, this means slagging off on the other.

In SG-1 fandom, you can like Sam and Janet both, but Anise/Freya and any other woman who might get under Jack's radar is free game.

In BSG fandom, even if you ship Kara/Lee, hating Dee is de rigeur. You can't like Athena and Boomer both. If you like Tory, you loathe Cally, and vice versa.

fandomsecrets told me not long ago that I can like either Lady Gaga or Florence (of Florence + the Machine). Luckily, the comment-thread there is filled with people going, "bah, I like them both." And a more recent secret said they were both awesome.

These are just examples. There are hundreds, maybe thousands more (you can't like Tosh and Gwen and Rose and Martha and Donna without hating at least one...)

Here's the thing, though. It's possible to like more than one female character, even if they're in direct competition for a guy, destiny, money, etc. You don't have to hate Jool to love Sikozu. You don't had to intensely dislike Ezri to love Jadzia.

Variety is the spice of life, and this societally-programed competition thing BITES. Fight the man.

Which sort of leads to...

2. I keep seeing this thread in the recent debates: squeeing and happiness about these women who 'break gender roles', 'subvert traditions', etc. And I keep coming up against this little niggling sense of... unease...

If the women we're in love with, the women we promote, are women who exhibit male characteristics, how is this helping? It's still privileging male ideals and motives as better than female. Isn't the whole point of lauding female characters to enjoy them regardless of whether they break out of the pre-supposed little boxes or not?

I'm not even sure there's a way around this conclusion--I can go on about how I grew up with Blake's 7 and Doctor Who and the Misssion Impossible remake and Voltron and thought women could be fighters, princesses, villains, sexy, homely and everything-in-between, but that doesn't change the fact that society says a woman can only do this, and men do that, and therefore: if a woman does man things, that makes her better.

This whole idea that women aren't interesting unless they're not acting like women seems like a ridiculous cop-out, not to mention being limiting, in the end, to the women in question.

3. If you are bashing female characters, how are you any better than the boyslashers (or hetficcers who use the Other Woman as a harpy/whore/etc) who don't write them at all? Writing one token chick is not a free pass to be a raging asshole towards all of the others. You do not get a special token of gratitude for liking That One Chick who breaks stereotypes and gender roles. You like Faith or Aeryn or Kara or Roslin or Olivia Dunham? Great. You're not special. Get back to me when you also like Buffy and Willow and Dee and Chiana and Zhaan and Jool and Sikozu and Cally...

Comments

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Oh, don't even get me started on how much I wanted to punch people on the Sam/Jack list when Vala was announced and their reaction was to bash her without even seeing more than stills.

And I tend to find gender neutral, but I know there's all this societal programming bullshit to overcome, so.

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

I... really have nothing to add to this. Except, y'know, THIS.

[miera-c.livejournal.com]

This whole idea that women aren't interesting unless they're not acting like women seems like a ridiculous cop-out, not to mention being limiting, in the end, to the women in question.

So very fucking much WORD.

[cujoy.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with your list, but I wanted to say that #2 has been bothering me quite a bit too.

Some of those metas gave me the impression that female characters are without merit *unless* they were "subverting gender roles" or some such. And I kept thinking that was a really limiting way to look at women. I found it kind of disturbing, actually.

Kara is great, but so are Dee and Cally. Toph is awesome, but so is Katara. Betty and Joan and Peggy aren't breaking any gender archetypes, but all of them rock.

we're only partway there

[auroramama]

You're right, there's something antifeminist about focusing exclusively on female characters who succeed at traditionally male objectives. It isn't equality. But it's so much easier for a woman to get respect by doing what's already respected -- stuff men do -- than to get respect by demanding respect for what women do, changing the cultural value system. It's hard work climbing a mountain, but it's easy compared to elevating the ground you're standing on until it's a mountain peak.

Saying a guy is like a woman is still the ultimate insult. If it's a question of two men having sex, the partner who does the penetrating is popularly assumed to be dominant, to get his way in everything. If het guys want to fuck women so much, you'd think they'd avoid acting as though getting fucked is the same as being defeated and humiliated. But it's been such an article of faith in Western cultures for so long that it seems immovable.

And it's more visibly, more vocally proclaimed now than it was twenty years ago. I thought it was funny the first time Phoebe on Friends told the other girls that if they were in prison they'd be her bitches. (I am not and have never been cool or hip or an early adopter, I know.) But the word is everywhere now, equating women with whores, gay men with prison slaves, and all of them with garbage.

Um. Sorry, overlapping rants. But yeah. As long as characteristics we associate with women and gay men are considered marks of inferiority, we don't have equality.

[sabaceanbabe.livejournal.com]

You know what? I frakking REFUSE to tear down one character in order to build up another. Boomer and Athena? Love 'em both. Jool and Sikozu? Same. Vala and Sam? Yep, same there, too. People can just be so stupid sometimes. O_o

[mfirefly10.livejournal.com]

Just...THIS! So much!

And every female character you mentioned whom I actually know, I love :D

[scarfman]

I like all women.

That may not have gotten across the way I meant it.

[karate0kat.livejournal.com]

Pft. I think we know exactly what you meant.

And there ain't nothin' wrong with that ;)

[lilacsigil.livejournal.com]

if a woman does man things, that makes her better.

I totally thought this when I was a geeky, D&D playing teenager. Why would anyone want to do "girly" things? "Girly" was disgusting. Pink was disgusting. But then I grew up.

This kind of attitude - that the only worthwhile values are those currently coded "masculine" - is why I don't use the term "strong women" any more. It was so horribly misunderstood in comics fandom, in particular. I use the term "women with agency."

[prozacpark.livejournal.com]

THIS. I've also been really reluctant to use the term "strong women" since realizing how fandom uses it. I say prominent/interesting women, because really, I LIKE WEAK FEMALE CHARACTERS, TOO! Especially if weak = flawed. ;) (Plus, way to pass judgment on every female character you're not liking, fandom!) But I do like 'women with agency' and may adopt that.

[ellestra.livejournal.com]

I never understood this either-or attitude. I like Rose and Martha and Donna. I may identify with Martha most because she is most like me but I never understood why, according to fandom, I should dislike others. For the record I also like Mickey, Jack and Jackie. It's not like there's a finite amount of liking and if I add one more character to my favourites I had to kick another one out.

And I find the whole 'subverting roles' thing ridiculous. People are suppose to be varied. I understand having favourites - some characters appeal to me more then others too - but why it has to mean we should hate others. I admit I like Sikozu more but I'm still angry about what happened to Jool. And I love Anie from Being Human too with tea making and dreams of being perfect wife. And for some reason the more female characters show has the better it gets for me. All this makes me feel like I don't belong in fandom sometimes.

[prozacpark.livejournal.com]

1). Fandom is made up of idiots, yes, but I also feel that our narratives often set up this dynamic? And then fans learn that, and it just...perpetuates itself, which is depressing. Not trying to excuse fandom, but also spreading the blame to include writers like Joss Whedon or Ron Moore who contribute to this issue, IMO.

2). For me, the problem actually starts when we start defining things as "male things" and "female things," and this is such a complex issue that it's hard to even TALK about it without getting trapped by how gendered our language/perceptions/metanarratives are? Gah, these days, I'm mostly just very annoyed that we have these categories at all. It's kind of depressing that we can't get away from this.

But Aeryn is a good example of why the early portrayal of Kara annoyed me (the writing, not Kara herself)? The writers seemed so AWARE of subverting a 'type' that I was offended by how they thought it was a subversion AT ALL, because I don't really see either as a subversion in terms of masculinity/femininity. Narratively? Yes, but not in terms of gender, if that makes any sense?


4). These days, I realize that I actually am more likely to fall for the women the fandom sees as 'rivals' for my OTCs than other random characters? Because I get exposed to insane amounts of hatred for Dee while interacting with Kara fans or Jean bashing with Emma fans, etc. Nothing makes me love a character like irrational fandom hatred.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

*does my best Whedon* You mean that one time I wrote a woman five years ago in a story doesn't give me a pass as a woman-loving feminist for life?

[ness-va.livejournal.com]

In SG-1 fandom, you can like Sam and Janet both, but Anise/Freya and any other woman who might get under Jack's radar is free game.

For me, the only reason I didn't like Anise/Freya was the wooden acting that happened from time to time... I think 'competition for a mate' (to put it in a basic way because I've been awake too long) is actually character developing for the 'opposing' character... thing is, though I guess I am a Jack/Sam shipper, I also never hated it when they got together with any other character...

If the women we're in love with, the women we promote, are women who exhibit male characteristics, how is this helping? It's still privileging male ideals and motives as better than female.

Well, it's not helping. But women who only exhibit female characteristics isn't helping either. But then I think that just delves into the debate about defining male/female characteristics which is just endless and totally tied into your cultural background. But I think that's the sorta thing that Amanda Tapping has kinda tried to say about Sam before... she knows she can kick butt, but also knows she can be feminine. Which is good because I think her influence gave the character a lot of depth that otherwise may not have existed (or may have taken a lot longer to show). But once again that just comes back to a stereotype ... so I think the real question is individuality, not gender stereotyping (in positive or negative ways).

(Excuse gibberish, long day on little sleep.)

[havocthecat]

But it's okay to want someone to punch her in the mouth if she really is a scheming bitch, trashy slut, evil temptress, shrewish harpy or a murderous whore, right? RIGHT? God damn it, some women just deserve to die. Because I don't approve of them.

I don't give a damn if you find something good about these female characters; if I don't like them or don't find something to identify with, it's okay to trash-talk them and call them bitches.

(I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS. However, there are many people who do, though - sometimes - without such extremes of language. But extremes of language can help point out when an attitude is severely problematic.)

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

My eyes, Havoc, my eyes did SUCH GOOGLY THINGS when I got this comment in gmail.