Thoughts on a tgimf.

[lyssie]

1. I keep meaning to say this and forgetting: one of the things about Sanctuary that I sort of approve of is the whole "older woman mentors younger boy" thing. You don't see it often. In fact, the only other time I remember seeing it is in Animaniacs. Slappy Squirrel and Skippy. Which then leads me to the far happier thought of Helen Magnus mentoring Skippy (and Will getting blown up by Slappy a lot).

It would sort of be like Seven and Ace, but gender-swapped and without the time travel. Probably.

2. I tried to listen to some 4.5 BSG earlier in the week, and my immediate loathing and inability to enjoy it leads me to one conclusion: 4.5 was really shit.

3. Having run out of Nero Wolfe but being lazy and not having bundled and mu'd it, I did the unthinkable and ripped Peacekeeper Wars last night. I may not have a brain after work (I'm taking Self-Inflicted Wounds, too) [That's Farscape, for those O.o ing]

4. There is a trope I loathe, if that's what it can be called. It was sort of obliquely touched upon in f!s last night, where people were talking about why they don't like what the writers on Bones are doing to her character.

It's this: the idea that a woman has to fix herself so she can be with a man. In Bones, Brennan has to get over her issues so she can become Booth's ideal woman (there's never any inference that he is wrong and has to change his worldview for her). In NCIS, Ziva has to become a more docile, womanly-girly-girl to be Tony's kind of woman (she rarely gets to win in joke/argument contests these days). In BSG, Kara has to fix herself so she can be with Lee (or Sam, though canon rarely showed us Sam telling her she was a screw-up, and Collaborators was supposed to be Trucco's last episode). In In Plain Sight Mary has to get over her issues so she can be with Marshall or Raph (as much as I like Raph, he does sort of see her as someone she's not--and she returns the favor, not really knowing him, either).

Those are not the only examples, I'm fairly certain I could go on for pages. Sometimes, it's the fandom that puts this idea out there. But usually, it's the canon. These flawed women aren't good enough to catch a man, so they should fix themselves. Because catching a man is the only goal they should have.

And there should never be a man who has to fix himself for a woman.

Well. Maybe Leverage will screw that trope over, too.

Comments

[cosmic.livejournal.com]

2. I was watching a BSG vid - the beautiful Cathedrals (http://chaila43.livejournal.com/78518.html) by chaila43 - this morning and being astounded by the presence of these female characters and how awesome they were. And how gorgeous the show could be. Somewhere around seasons three and four I forgot, and I was so utterly disappointed by the ending of the show, that I forgot how much I did - do - love some parts and characters of the show. (But, oddly enough, my favourite episodes of BSG right now are season four's mutiny episodes, because Felix Gaeta was my favourite and that end was good, even if it was horrible.)

4. I hate that trope, too. It's fine if a person has to grow as a human being so as not to be a horrible person/so fucked up/an actual child or whatever, or even for two people to grow up as people before they can have any kind of functional relationship, but the idea of a Man (or Woman) being Perfect and the other person having to grow to be more Ideal Partner-y or Traditional Genderrole-y to be deemed ok for them to be a couple is so very gross.

[the-ladylark.livejournal.com]

On the trope thing, I haven't seen some of the examples you list. But with BSG, surely half the point (as I read it) is that the reason Kara and Lee was DOOMED(tm) was that he wanted her to change and she refused to, whereas Sam was happy with her as she was, and just wanted her to be happy. So even though there were lots of other things wrong with it, it was a much healthier relationship.

And as far as NCIS goes? I don't know if Ziva really gives a shit about being Tony's kind of woman.. you really think they are aiming to end those guys up together? I mean yeah they love eachother. But not like that I don't think.

[havocthecat]

Sophie left for her own sake, damn it. Not that I have strong opinions on the matter at all. Nope, not me.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Yep. But, but, she's the one who wants HIM to change before she will touch him with a ten-foot pole. Which I'm totally ok with. (meanwhile,she is off teaching Maggie the tricks of the trade)

[scarfman]

Those are not the only examples

I'm pretty sure most people assume Inara would eventually have given up her vocation for Mal. I'm happy to say I'm not one of them; all I've ever said about it is that one or both of them would have to become different people for their issues to clear up (scroll down to middle of page with Mal talking to Angel).

Well. Maybe Leverage will screw that trope over, too.

Yeah, but for which woman? :)

[miera-c.livejournal.com]

To be honest, there are women who should be overcoming their flaws, and I have no problem with that in a general sense. But it's when it gets tied to a man as a reward for him that it becomes seriously wrong. Women improve themselves for themselves...love is about taking people as-is.

Would this be a problem if the woman was the paragon and the man has to fix his flaws to earn her? I don't know how often if ever I've seen this play out, but I'm wondering if it works the other direction. (I'm assuming yes it would be just as wrong. PEOPLE need to work on themselves. And even the most loving relationship involves compromise and effort. But it shouldn't be gendered. Nor should it be "You must fix yourself to conform to what I demand, then I'll accept you.")

[samstareagle.livejournal.com]

In fact, the only other time I remember seeing it is in Animaniacs. Slappy Squirrel and Skippy. Which then leads me to the far happier thought of Helen Magnus mentoring Skippy (and Will getting blown up by Slappy a lot).

LOL!!! Now that would be hilarious...

[prozacpark.livejournal.com]

1). I kind of have a deep thing for this trope, or really, even women in mentor roles at all? Since western literature loves its male mentors/father figures.

2). There's a season 4.5?!

4). This has ruined more ships for me than possibly any other trope? Because I have a thing for unconventional women, and I like shipping my OTCs with everyone, but whenever these things go canon, there's a high potential for gender fail. I remember being filled with RAGE when Angel confessed his love to Cordelia by stating that she had 'grown' and changed: ie: became WORTHY of his love. Changed in every way to accommodate his heroic journey while completely losing her own narrative voice. (Joss wrote that episode, OF COURSE.)

This is actually the thing I love best about Aeryn/John: they both have to meet halfway and change equally to have a relationship. Arguments can be made for how those changes are portrayed differently for them, but they BOTH change. <3

I really love and appreciate fictional men who love the women despite/because of the flaws, and tend to get easily annoyed when there's a sense that they're waiting for her to...correct her ways. Because *I* don't want her to correct her ways! ;)