lyssie: (Miss Marple doubts your intelligence)
lyssie ([personal profile] lyssie) wrote2010-01-23 02:44 pm

The more things change.... ALL OF THIS HAS HAPPENED BEFORE.

Snark ahoy.
eta: I'm exceedingly busy right now, so I'm not replying at ALL. Leverage takes precedence, sorry.
Navel-gazing 101: Boyslash is So Deep and Transformative

Step 1. Write a m/m slash fic, with or without butt-sex. Make certain to worship the penis and deride the vagina as much as possible.

Step 2. Rake in the feedback and wait for the one that may, possibly, wonder where the women are or think you got them OOC or is mildly curious how x-y-z is possible.

Step 3. Ignore the intent of the feedback and rant about it in your journal/blog about some homophobic asshole came and stomped on your parade and how it's NOT FAIR that gay men at so stigmatised and how your fic was just trying to help.

Step 4. Rake in the condolences and anti-homophobic rage from your friends. Bonus: if you're linked on metafandom, complete strangers will tell you how crusading you are for having the strength to continue to write about two men fucking.

Step 5. Post about how you have calmed down and maybe examined your privilege, and how you're sorry people who don't like gays exist in the world. Go off about how boyslash is helping to narrow the gap in fiction and how no one is straight (least of all, hot white dudes). Make sure to throw in lots of words like 'heteronormative' and 'cis-gendered' so your audience thinks you're deep and smart. Remember not to mention femslash or the idea that m/m fic excludes women.

Step 6. Notice that this activity has caused some, "Uh, but... " from the person who might have given you the original crit. Condescendingly tell them they just don't understand oppression.

Step 7. Explain to your friends list how you like this one movie/show and the woman (possibly plural) in it because it subverts gender types and tropes, and how AWESOME it is, but how sad you are that you can never talk about it (or women) because everyone you know is a boyslasher. And you wouldn't want to dare harsh their squee by talking about vaginas.

Step 8. Be comforted that all of your comments will be replies telling you that there are only a few well-written women, and they're the only ones anyone can like. Badly-written women are so common, after all, and even if the men are badly-written, they're easier to understand (boys are so awesome, squee, did you know about that minor male character/male character in two seconds of that one episode Big Bang? Wasn't it wonderful?).

Step 9. By now, the female character fans will probably be going, "dude..." Take everything they say out of context and wrong, accuse them of wanting only submissive/heteronormative women and dismiss their comments as "haters" and "people who don't liek* gays in media".

Step 10. Write one fic about a woman.

Step 11. Talk about how it was so hard, because women are so boring... You may need to go back to step 6 or 7, at this point.

Step 12. Repeat in a years' time, sure in the knowledge that the female characters will have dwindled even more in the media as the boyslashers continue to dominate fandoms and produce trends that advertisers/producers use to gauge their audience.

* a typo, but it was perfect, so I'm leaving it.

[identity profile] frolicndetour.livejournal.com 2010-01-23 09:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, the thing that really gets me about these discussions is that they sound like they're taking place in 1970. At best. Yeah, there really weren't all that many interesting female characters in the original Star Trek. However many years ago that was. It's just not true anymore.* I actually saw one post on Metafandom using the ''no interesting women' argument as a reason for writing RPS. o.O I mean, on the one hand, while I'm certainly not pearl-clutchy about RPF, I can imagine the actors not liking the idea of it, so it's too weird to be like "you must write more porn about actresses for great justice." On the other hand, is this like, God-the-sexist-writer just didn't give us any interesting real women? Huh?

*And to the extent it is true, I think that's a function of what people choose to watch. You can't watch Supernatural and then claim that you are driven to slash because of the dearth of female characters.
Edited 2010-01-23 21:16 (UTC)

[identity profile] lesbiassparrow.livejournal.com 2010-01-23 09:37 pm (UTC)(link)
I actually saw one post on Metafandom using the ''no interesting women' argument as a reason for writing RPS.

For real? That's so...bizarre. And disturbing.

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[identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com 2010-01-23 09:55 pm (UTC)(link)
You can't watch Supernatural and then claim that you are driven to slash because of the dearth of female characters.

But don't you know that shows with female leads are boring and/or not engaging enough, so you can only wath ahows about men for real entertainment?

It's like how too many female narrators could cause the apocalypse.

*goes off to watch Chinese historical drama about women*

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[identity profile] ayiana.livejournal.com 2010-01-23 09:16 pm (UTC)(link)
lol! *cough*

Um. Yeah. I saw that, too. Kind of made me go all bug-eyed.

Could win the prize in a "People Who Just. Don't. Get it." contest, yes?

[identity profile] miera-c.livejournal.com 2010-01-23 09:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Take everything they say out of context and wrong, accuse them of wanting only submissive/heteronormative women and dismiss their comments as "haters" and "people who don't liek* gays in media".

*sigh*

[identity profile] ayiana.livejournal.com 2010-01-23 10:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Just dropping in to say that your post on the erasure of women (which I've been following mainly on Dreamwidth because that's where the Metafandom link went), is wonderfully cogent. It's too bad that so many of the people who need to hear it (and understand what you're trying to say) won't. Instead you're getting hit with a wave of defensiveness and rationalization, and I find that very sad.

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[identity profile] sabaceanbabe.livejournal.com 2010-01-23 10:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I've seen mentions of some big metatastic slash discussion going on, but... There are no interesting women? Really? And boys are better? O_o

[identity profile] ladielazarus.livejournal.com 2010-01-26 05:56 am (UTC)(link)
I have to say that even as someone who is new to the whole argument, I can't believe that anyone thinks that they have a leg to stand on with this argument.

...sad.

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ext_14817: (Don't Make Me Come Out The Vase!)

[identity profile] meresy.livejournal.com 2010-01-23 10:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, because when we like something that contains elements of problematic dominant paradigms, we are so enlightened in all ways by being members of group X and liking "subversive" genre Y that our tastes reflect nothing but our individual, entirely conscious choices. It is always a coincidence that I, Princess Snowflake McLiberalism, have mainstream tastes or opinions. And because I'm such a sensitive student of the word, my conscience in dealing with one group necessarily translates perfectly to enlightened handling of completely different minority issues.

Anybody who suggests there could be problems with what I like is some just of subcultural snob...

Generalization sucks, in general. And there is a happy medium betwixt thoughtful criticism and Taking! It! Seriously! On The Internet. *does not touch metafandom with a ten-foot-pole*
Edited 2010-01-23 22:12 (UTC)

[identity profile] miera-c.livejournal.com 2010-01-23 11:53 pm (UTC)(link)
It is always a coincidence that I, Princess Snowflake McLiberalism, have mainstream tastes or opinions. And because I'm such a sensitive student of the word, my conscience in dealing with one group necessarily translates perfectly to enlightened handling of completely different minority issues.

OMG THIS.

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[identity profile] scifiaddict86.livejournal.com 2010-01-23 10:12 pm (UTC)(link)
LMAO tihs is so true

[identity profile] brilliantomega.livejournal.com 2010-01-23 11:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Bwhahahahha.
Edited 2010-01-23 23:12 (UTC)

[identity profile] rose-griffes.livejournal.com 2010-01-24 01:20 am (UTC)(link)
Dear fandom:

Whether fanfic is your hobby or your Great Crusade for Sexual Justice, it wouldn't hurt to examine your own preferences now and then and think about their implications.
ext_18106: (Anders sweet)

[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2010-01-30 06:56 am (UTC)(link)
PFfft. Navel-gazing only works when it reinforces the belief that discussion of white males is the best thing ever.
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ext_18106: (Azkadellia)

[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2010-01-30 06:57 am (UTC)(link)
Me, either. =D

[identity profile] ladielazarus.livejournal.com 2010-01-24 03:46 am (UTC)(link)
I don't mean to bring down a rain of hate upon me, and I don't know the original thread this is referencing, so I'm not necessarily commenting on that, but, I have to ask.

Doesn't femmslash exclude men, too?

Like, isn't it okay because we both occasionally exclude each other?

I mean I understand the rage at the whole "women are boring" or "Vagina = evil" thing. I get that. That makes sense.

I just don't see, overall, how one form of slash is superior to the other.

I guess I'm just confused.

[identity profile] melyanna.livejournal.com 2010-01-24 04:41 am (UTC)(link)
Assuming that you're serious and I'm not missing the funny (I am very tired tonight, have been using the brain too much for a weekend)...

Doesn't femmslash exclude men, too?

Like, isn't it okay because we both occasionally exclude each other?


I think you may be approaching this from a different angle, but with every metric I can think of, femslash and boyslash do not equal each other out at all. In most fandoms, especially the big ones, boyslash has a greater presence than femslash. I feel like this is akin to a claim of reverse sexism, which really can't exist. For a prejudice to have teeth, it has to have force behind it, and force comes from the person with the prejudice having some sort of power over the object of prejudice.

There are probably examples of women, say, in management positions who mistreat their male employees, but that's on such a micro level that I don't think it's even worth addressing. It's not systemic. Laws don't have to be passed to make sure that men are paid the same wages as women doing the same work with the same qualifications. The opposite, however, is true. By and large, in many cases men do have the ability to exclude women from all sorts of things.

I would also argue that we're not talking about "occasional" exclusion of women, but your fandom experiences may be different than mine. It's also worth noting that in many if not most fandoms, the boyslash far outnumbers the femslash, so it's not like one cancels out the other. I don't think Lyssie was saying that femslash is superior to slash, simply that it doesn't promote the erasure of characters who are already less prevalent in various kinds of fiction. That's been at least one of the arguments that's been going around in the last couple of weeks – that slash, because of its intense focus on male characters, fosters attitudes about female characters that don't really encourage people to write more and better women.

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noracharles: (Default)

[personal profile] noracharles 2010-01-26 12:04 pm (UTC)(link)
this is too accurate to be entertaining

LIES! It was hilarious and you know it ;-)

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[identity profile] ijemanja.livejournal.com 2010-01-25 05:58 am (UTC)(link)
Ah. I came to the flist today after a little bit away and wondered what was going on, but after one glance at metafandom I suspected THIS. THIS EXACT THING.

See, I think I've been doing fandom all wrong. But now I have this helpful how-to guide, and those poor neglected white dudes can finally get the attention they deserve.
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (Default)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2010-01-25 05:34 pm (UTC)(link)
I keep seeing you in these discussions, and you have interesting things to say. Mind if I add you?

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tielan: (Bones - Brennan)

[personal profile] tielan 2010-01-25 09:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Everything that's old is new again?

Take everything they say out of context and wrong, accuse them of wanting only submissive/heteronormative women and dismiss their comments as "haters" and "people who don't liek* gays in media".

Oh, now why does this sound familiar?
ext_18106: (Teyla)

[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2010-01-30 07:02 am (UTC)(link)
I'd cry, but yes. It's like the boyslash fandom gets a new influx, and they must indoctrinate them, so there is navel-gazing. Or something. (it's ridiculous, how it goes on and on and round and round and never seems to end)

[identity profile] amilyn.livejournal.com 2010-01-25 10:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Ah, that about sums it up some days, doesn't it.

Would that my icon were more true.

*facepalm*

[identity profile] esorlehcar.livejournal.com 2010-01-26 01:11 am (UTC)(link)
It's funny because it's grossly depressing!

I love fandom except for all those times I really, really it.

[identity profile] nolivingman.livejournal.com 2010-01-26 01:28 am (UTC)(link)
*applauds*

[identity profile] nova-bright.livejournal.com 2010-01-27 08:11 am (UTC)(link)
God I love fic with women in it. I realllllly really do. I read hella dudes doing dudes, and I adore women in the main role, alongside and in every way involved in the narrative.

And when they are not? I don't want to read the fic, no matter how much anal is going to occur. Because inclusive fic, celebratory fic is one million times more enjoyable then fic that ignores and deletes and stereotypes women out of existence.

[identity profile] bofoddity.livejournal.com 2010-01-27 01:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Yep, this is how it goes. Now, to decide whether to cry about how sad but true that is or laugh about how you were able to sum it up in a funny way..

[identity profile] swordygardener.livejournal.com 2010-01-27 05:27 pm (UTC)(link)
and produce trends that advertisers/producers use to gauge their audience.


I hope that is still snark, because blaming slash fans for the lack of women is... an argument so awful, illogical and ignorant of TV procedures that it needs to DIAF immediately. Sadly some people actually use it seriously...


Other than that, I actually saw slashers like the one you describe as fun for real. Harry Potter: Sirius/Lupin shippers and their rabid dislike for Tonks are probably one of the biggest example. Or Supernatural. Living parodies, those fans.

Love them when they go all haty on femmeslash fics, cause femmeslash is apparently OOC by nature, even when the couple is actually canon. Heck, I saw huge slashfans watching a series that was labeled to be about girl/girl, and after it ended with an inevitable coupling, complaining how OOC it was, alongside the angry het fans.

No wonder there's barely any F/F couples around in original stories. Barely anyone seems to like them :(
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (Default)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2010-01-27 05:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Other than that, I actually saw slashers like the one you describe as fun for real. Harry Potter: Sirius/Lupin shippers and their rabid dislike for Tonks are probably one of the biggest example. Or Supernatural. Living parodies, those fans.

The reason she's describing them that way is beause she - and I, and many others - have seen people act that way for real as well. It's not really "for fun," it's more for blowing off steam because the behavior is very rage-inducing.

As to the people hating on femslash, well, I am right therer with you on the annoyance about that.

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[identity profile] neshel.livejournal.com 2010-01-27 08:53 pm (UTC)(link)
I really don't understand slashers sometime, even though I'm technically now one of them. I used to write a lot of primarily female-centric het or f/f stories, then I got into a m/m pairing from Heroes and wrote that for a long time. I was annoyed enough with my choice of female characters that I had to write my own into my epic. I used a few from cannon, but there's only so much you can do with that meagre selection. Still, not why I wrote an m/m pairing for so long, it just happened to be what interested me at the time. Not anymore, because Heroes has long been down the tubes, but still.

Anyway, I guess to sum up, it's always been character that interested me, regardless of gender. I really don't understand the appeal if people are just writing about "the pretty boys/girls".

[identity profile] cysfics.livejournal.com 2010-01-27 09:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Ugh. I deal with this so much. Honestly, when I first heard about this, I dismissed it. People overreacting to shit the way people always do, right? Then my little yaoi well just dried out (hey, it happens), and my yuri/het well got full to bursting. And I lost about one third of my readership, all of them talking about how they love the various female characters, they really do, but they just... aren't into them. I'm sorry, this sounds like a little fanficcer whining about her lack of reviews, but it just kinda.. I dunno, the fact that people are begging me to go back to writing yaoi, and I guess I'm just getting a bit bitter. Sorry, lots of rambling here, but to sum it up, I really agree with you.

From mf

[identity profile] pseudo_tsuga.livejournal.com 2010-01-28 04:20 am (UTC)(link)
lolsobbing because it's much too common.

[identity profile] linkspam-mod.livejournal.com 2010-01-28 04:27 am (UTC)(link)
Your post has been included in a Linkspam roundup (http://linkspam.dreamwidth.org/20440.html?format=light).