lyssie: (Sikozu going mad)
lyssie ([personal profile] lyssie) wrote2009-10-04 02:12 pm

So, I don't get this. I really don't.

There's a lack of well-written female and non-white characters on TV and in media. But people who whine about that, still watch things produced and created by people who are shit at writing anything but white males

HOW THE FUCK DOES THAT LOGIC WORK?

If you want more well-written women and non-white characters? STOP WATCHING AND SUPPORTING THE PEOPLE WHO CANNOT DO IT.

Otherwise? Shut the fuck up about how you want no sexism and racism in TV and media. Because you are PART OF THE FUCKING PROBLEM.

[identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com 2009-10-04 08:07 pm (UTC)(link)
But how else will people justify only caring about the white men on TV?

(Yeah, all "sides" tend to use the argument, but...)

Also, this may be why most English language stuff I watch is SFF and period dramas.
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[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2009-10-05 12:46 am (UTC)(link)
SFF actually tends to be fifty times WORSE in the treatment of women and non-white characters.

It's not doing so great this season, but when I used to be able to point at NCIS and say they were being better about race and gender than fucking Stargate, BSG and any OTHER SFF show?

Yeah.

[identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com 2009-10-05 12:51 am (UTC)(link)
Admittedly, my brain was mostly FS/early-SG1/Eureka/B5/Whedon-before-he-lost-it, etc

(This is what I get for consistently being years behind the rest of fandom.)
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[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2009-10-05 12:45 am (UTC)(link)
I'm sorry, you trust the Stargate writers not to be full of gender and race fail.

[identity profile] pamspam.livejournal.com 2009-10-04 08:48 pm (UTC)(link)
I take it someone somewhere is whining....?

Unfortunately ...despite agreeing to some extent with the sentiment. It does not reflect the entity that is 'jo public' and until 'jo public' cares enough to be educated? People will continue to use a genre that is 'popular' and makes errr....money!
Sad.
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[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2009-10-05 12:44 am (UTC)(link)
No, people are still watching shit like Supernatural and Stargate.

[identity profile] pamspam.livejournal.com 2009-10-05 01:58 am (UTC)(link)
Which was my point.

Because it does not reflect what we may like to see? Will not stop people from watching. Their prerogative...studio money. The internet in this is tiny really.

Money talks Lalala. Sad... as I said. What interests me is how this can be changed.
IF the role is perceived as not strong...do we then denigrate the actors? They like us....most times in this genre are just making a living. I guess to have principals...requires financial security. Round and round and round. Never saw Supernatural Lyssie...will give it a miss LOL!

[identity profile] fangirljen.livejournal.com 2009-10-04 08:48 pm (UTC)(link)
This is why I LOVE Bryan Fuller like Whoa. That man writes women, but particularly older women, very well. His influence on Heroes will be sorely missed. But I will support his future endeavors. I hope he becomes the next JJ Abrams. That would be really, really fantastic.
Edited 2009-10-04 20:49 (UTC)
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[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2009-10-05 01:01 am (UTC)(link)
Heroes is a sausage-fest.
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[identity profile] lilacsigil.livejournal.com 2009-10-05 12:17 am (UTC)(link)
"Cisgendered" means that your gender matches your physical sex; the opposite of "transgendered".
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[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2009-10-05 12:46 am (UTC)(link)
This. I do not get it. I just don't.
auroramama: (Pansy "Dynamite Wine Flash")

hippocrene

[personal profile] auroramama 2009-10-05 12:14 am (UTC)(link)
Hmmm. There's plenty of stuff out there that's occasionally good but often bad, or vice-versa. For example, who knew until BSG 4.5 was done just how well the female human characters were going to make out? If BtVS was worthy of being watched, at what point, if ever, did Angel cease to be? Is Dollhouse entirely beyond the pale? (And why is it that some creators get worse about this over time, instead of better?)

I like "cis-gendered", but then I'm from the section of ScienceNerdLand that it comes from. And I like Supernatural when it's not making me insane with rage. I know there's hypocrisy there; I try not to be obnoxious about it. There are worse things than hypocrisy, IMO. I'd rather vice be scared enough of virtue to pay tribute to it, than honestly contemptuous of it.

[identity profile] lilacsigil.livejournal.com 2009-10-05 12:16 am (UTC)(link)
I know what you're talking about. That said, I'd love to live in the world where I can only watch things that are that good! Watching critically is not the same as supporting.
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[identity profile] nicole-anell.livejournal.com 2009-10-05 12:34 am (UTC)(link)
I'd love to live in the world where I can only watch things that are that good!
Heh, my thoughts too. I'd basically have to sell my TV.
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[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2009-10-05 01:01 am (UTC)(link)
I KNOW IT'S SUCH A CRAZY thought. Not watching things that are written by people who suck. But if more people actually did it, instead of squeeing about it and talking it up everywhere, maybe more studios would produce things that aren't fail.

idk. I guess we should just be glad women and non-white men can talk, y?
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[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2009-10-05 12:59 am (UTC)(link)
Well, it helps if you don't watch things produced by people known to fail. Ron Moore or the Stargate people are good examples of that.

[identity profile] lilacsigil.livejournal.com 2009-10-05 01:47 am (UTC)(link)
...I don't watch Stargate and I've given up on Supernatural. But even Middleman had the occasional homophobic joke.
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[identity profile] holdouttrout.livejournal.com 2009-10-05 01:06 am (UTC)(link)
I don't know. I think that you can enjoy things that are bad for you, know they're bad for you, and criticize them. I don't necessarily see that as a conflict, OR whining. As long as people aren't derailing someone else's conversation.

[identity profile] annerbhp.livejournal.com 2009-10-05 02:00 am (UTC)(link)
Mea culpa. Sometimes I, like all humans, let my optimism and sense of loyalty over-rule my critical brain. Plus, I'm inclined to give a chance to the people who gave me Sam Carter, Teal'c, and Teyla. Foolish? Probably. Criminal? Well, I think I know how you'd answer that. Feel free to disown. :)

[identity profile] tafkarfanfic.livejournal.com 2009-10-05 04:42 am (UTC)(link)
This is perhaps more acerbic than what I was going to write, but my feeling is mostly along the same lines.

Also, Lyssie, you could have said flat-out that you were pissed at us for watching SGU or Supernatural or Smallville or Heroes or Dollhouse (I'm only watching one of them, but it sounds from the comments like your anger is directed at people watching any of these shows). You could also call us out by name.

According to many, Gray's Anatomy is the best show on TV for both women and PoC. Personally, it makes me want to vomit and I would never watch it. (And the women act like such blithering idiots all the time that I frankly don't understand why they're held up as a shining example of a women's TV show.)

The CSIs, etc. to me are murder porn, and I won't watch them for that very reason.

I am curious - what do you think about Sanctuary? It has a lot of kick-ass women. It's also produced by some of the people you loathe.

[identity profile] vickyocean.livejournal.com 2009-10-05 04:40 am (UTC)(link)
What astounds me is when there are shows that have well developed characters that aren't white men, those same people pick and tear those characters apart for not being perfect, particularly the female characters that have depth and are drawn in shades of grey, not just black or white, but make excuses for the male characters behavior even if the commit mass murder.
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[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2009-10-06 02:18 am (UTC)(link)
THIS.

[identity profile] prozacpark.livejournal.com 2009-10-06 01:59 am (UTC)(link)
I think a lot of the problem actually comes from the brainless gushing part? And the blatant refusal to see the problems in something you like? I think people need to learn to acknowledge the flaws in texts they love and criticize things when there's sexism and racism instead of gushing over how awesome it was when Sam and Dean stabbed the evil bitch of the week to death.

Like, if everyone who watched and loved BSG actually acknowledged its flaws instead of praising the writers, the writers might have given a fuck about the women and not killed them all? But we had large portions of fandom defending the sexist choices (not to mention PRAISING sexist choices like Dee's suicide), and I just...don't get it. And "Supernatural" fandom is a good example of this, where the fans keep motivating the writers to be ever more sexist. I...would like to think that it could work the other way if people grew brains overnight in a magical miracle from heavens?

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[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2009-10-06 02:19 am (UTC)(link)
ugh. Yes, that, too.

[identity profile] ellestra.livejournal.com 2009-10-07 05:51 pm (UTC)(link)
My problem lies in the fact that women are usually the ones I like most. If I don't like female characters (there isn't any) I tend not to watch. And I noticed that when there's a problem with female characters, male characters aren't that great either. It's just that somehow male characters get a pass because the actors are cute or something. And that annoys me more then anything.

(I tend not to speak about POC characters and rasism in other countries shows because many things are culturally determined and, despite watching American shows all my life, I often am puzzled by what is acceptable an what is not. I, however, have always been puzzled by the lack of Asian and Native American characters in US TV scape.)