lyssie: (Connie Murphy thinks you're full of shit)
lyssie ([personal profile] lyssie) wrote2009-09-16 07:30 am
Entry tags:

I should be putting on my socks.

Yesterday's f!s post had this secret: http://i25.tinypic.com/2j0xgya.jpg

"95% of what I read is slash. S: I'm still hurt that my PWP slash fics get ten times the feedback that my female-character-centric gen fics receive, despite the fact that my gen is linked to a larger audience.
"B!S: I should stop pouting and rest secure in the knowledge that at least I write the women better than the show ever did."

Now, I can immediately see a couple of reasons why:

1. 95% of the fandom reads nothing but boyslash just like the poster of the secret.

2. If the poster reads only 5% non-slash, they probably aren't giving feedback to others writing female-centric fic. Maybe they should start doing so (just a thought). A lot of people aren't going to feedback your stuff just 'cause you're writing it, especially if you're not reciprocating.

3. Gen, in Stargate terms, means no romance. So you're essentially writing non-femslashy, non-het female-centric fic. That's nice, on one level, but women like smutty girlfic, too.

4. Nice bit of arrogance about how you're writing them better. Maybe the lack of feedback is proof that you aren't.

5. I don't know about all readers, but I tend to ignore female gen fic written by boyslashers. Or at least approach it with trepidation. Especially when it's sort of obvious that they're writing their one, token, female fic piece so they can claim that, REALLY, they LOVE women, they just don't think any of them deserve those horrible men. Which is why everything else they write is boyslash.

[identity profile] miera-c.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 01:07 pm (UTC)(link)
If the poster reads only 5% non-slash, they probably aren't giving feedback to others writing female-centric fic. Maybe they should start doing so

Word.

but I tend to ignore female gen fic written by boyslashers. Or at least approach it with trepidation. Especially when it's sort of obvious that they're writing their one, token, female fic piece so they can claim that, REALLY, they LOVE women

Yup. Unless it's by someone I know and trust, I don't read a lot of gen fic in general (cause yes, I'm one of the smutty fic fans) and especially would stay away from gen fic written by someone I know is a slash writer.

[identity profile] vicki595.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 01:13 pm (UTC)(link)
I also find when I occasionally do read fic marked gen by someone I know to be a slash writer, there's often a few lines about Shep&McKay being OneTwuLuv and NO! That's enough to make me stop reading right in the middle, no matter how good it might have been up to that point.

[identity profile] miera-c.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 03:28 pm (UTC)(link)
there's often a few lines about Shep&McKay being OneTwuLuv

Yeah that drives me batty. If you pair anyone up, it's not gen! Friendship is gen. More than friendship=not gen. How hard is this to grasp?
mtgat: (Jack-a-Eo)

[personal profile] mtgat 2009-09-16 01:45 pm (UTC)(link)
This.

With an added "Quit complaining." People who write female-centric fic of all kinds don't get as much feedback as the boyslash in almost every fandom. Fandom's like that. If your specialass snowflake self thinks you deserve more feedback on your particular stories, maybe you ought to, IDK, help out more. Feedback female-centric stories. Talk up the female characters positively when people are pulling out their bingo markers and smack down the misogyny when it's running wild again. Otherwise, you're an entitled fanbrat whining for feedback.

Not that I'm bitter.
havocthecat: daria is not impressed (daria)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2009-09-16 03:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes. Exactly.

[identity profile] ladyniko.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 02:29 pm (UTC)(link)
See, I went for the gen fics first, because too many of the slash fics had me cringing.

I'm not a boy slash fan really... for some strange reason, it mostly makes me want to run away.

But, this person's problem seems that as stated by others, that they are writing the female gen fic as a token effort, not really putting much into it. If you want to get readers for it, then you need to be out there talking about it, trying to get others to read it and talk about it. Which they will if it's a good enough story.

I actually look forward to seeing more gen female SG fics.

So, this person needs to quit complaining & put their money where their mouth is. If they want positive feedback, then they need to write a damn good story.

[identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 02:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Don't know know that the women are just too good for the men, and so it's better for them to slash the men so the men can have sex, and make the focus about the men and thier relationships (So original, too!) with the women doing...something else. Something secondary. Probably in the background. But it's better for them that way!
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (lizzie crabby bitch)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2009-09-16 03:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Is this locked? No? I'm getting bitchy anyway. ALSO I FEEL I SHOULD SAY THAT I AM NOT IMPLICITLY CONDEMNING ANYONE WHO WRITES SLASH. (And if you really feel condemned by my comment, maybe you should be taking a look at your own writing to see if what I say applies to you.)

I hate when people who write one genre get all bitchy about how people who write primarily their genre are the bestest writers EVAR OMG, and everyone else writes tired retreads, but not THEIR GENRE'S WRITERS, and no one appreciates good writing, which is why they never get decent feedback in other genres, and so they just stick to writing what's "appreciated" and gets them better feedback, because, clearly, the more discerning readers and writers are in their genre and feedbacking that genre.

Er, sorry, I got a little carried away in that vicious circle of snobbery there. I've most recently - or maybe most memorably - seen it amongst (SOME) slash fen, who say that all het writers do is write tired romance novel tropes, and that even het written by slash writers is better than het written by anyone else, because slash writers are so much more freed of tired heteronormative gender constructs. Ugh, please. 90% of everything is crap, and that includes ALL fanfic.

Yes, I'm aware that het and gen writers do the same damned thing. (Femslash has its own series of bitchfests, but they don't usually involve the enlightenment of its writers and the superiority of femslash above all other genres. Oh, femslash, I love you so, AND YET.)

As to ignoring female gen fic written by boyslashers, I tend to eye it with serious amounts of trepidation. It's oftentimes not really about the female characters, or the female characters are HORRIBLY mis-characterized and weakened, while the men are written as strong and competent around them.

Of course, you have to remember that I'm the person who was That Bitch at the Stargate slash panel at Dragon*Con who listed the excuses for people not writing female characters, then asked the panelists why they didn't write female characters AND GOT THOSE SAME EXCUSES REGURGITATED AT ME. (I was also told there would be actual het and femslash talk. But the het was all about how Hathor was an evil rapist, and the femslash was me and one other person bringing it up before the conversation was rapidly derailed. My tolerance for this kind of shit is low right now.)
Edited 2009-09-16 15:38 (UTC)

[identity profile] stealth-rose.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 03:45 pm (UTC)(link)
. ALSO I FEEL I SHOULD SAY THAT I AM NOT IMPLICITLY CONDEMNING ANYONE WHO WRITES SLASH.

zomg you're totally talking about me, I know it! *spazzes*

Sorry, been working on a database all morning. My brane is fryed and a bit warped atm. :)
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (faith bad example)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2009-09-16 03:58 pm (UTC)(link)
*cackles* You've discovered that my DEEP DARK SECRET is that I'm really MAKING FUN OF SLASHERS ALL THE TIME. Especially when I post stuff about female characters. It's all because I want to malign and mock the slashers!

Sorry, been working on a database all morning. My brane is fryed and a bit warped atm. :)

My brain is in about the same place, really, so all is well. :)

[identity profile] stealth-rose.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 04:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Truth is, a good story is a good story. Slash, het, or gen. Some things I really don't want to read, but other than that? I'll give it a shot if I'm in the mood. Sometimes I want the het or the slash and the romance/PWP/what have you. Sometimes I want the story and don't want PWP.

Pretty much all the time, though, I want good writing. Unless I'm of a mood to point and mock.
(deleted comment)
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (cadman)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2009-09-16 04:58 pm (UTC)(link)
After that panel, I had no desire to go to the female character panel. *facepalm* Sad, but true.
(deleted comment)
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (Default)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2009-09-16 08:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Do not play with the balloons.

Do not touch the balloons.

Do not look at the balloons.

DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT THE BALLOONS.

Sheesh.
ext_18106: (Default)

[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2009-09-17 12:23 am (UTC)(link)
*DIES*

I feel as though I need that on a shirt.
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (Default)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2009-09-17 02:17 pm (UTC)(link)
It would be a hilarious shirt to wear to next year's D*C.

[identity profile] ayiana.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 04:49 pm (UTC)(link)
I hate when people who write one genre get all bitchy about how people who write primarily their genre are the bestest writers EVAR OMG, and everyone else writes tired retreads, but not THEIR GENRE'S WRITERS, and no one appreciates good writing, which is why they never get decent feedback in other genres, and so they just stick to writing what's "appreciated" and gets them better feedback, because, clearly, the more discerning readers and writers are in their genre and feedbacking that genre.

This. Yes. *nods enthusiastically*

Also this:

all het writers do is write tired romance novel tropes, and that even het written by slash writers is better than het written by anyone else, because slash writers are so much more freed of tired heteronormative gender constructs.

So so very sick of the whole heteronormative gender constructs argument. Half the time I get the distinct impression that the people who go there don't really even have a clue what it means.

And, um, not to add fuel to the fire or anything, but it sure seems to me that there's a metric ton of slash fic out there that feminizes one of the male characters and plugs him into a heteronormative role.
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (ronon out of bed)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2009-09-16 05:06 pm (UTC)(link)
I get the feeling that a lot of people try not to write the typical gender constructs that they grew up with, and, ultimately, they often end up doing so anyway. I find it horribly grating in any genre.

For example, an adult Elizabeth Weir does not stick a lace window curtain over her hair, pretend to be at her wedding, and recite made-up vows to John Sheppard. Or wonder which of her "white knights" are going to rescue her when she's stuck on a transporter in Atlantis. Also, John Sheppard doesn't suddenly turn into a dewy-eyed person who swoons when Ronon overpowers him with his masculinity and kisses him. (The first two are real fics I've read. The last one, I just made up. I read way less boyslash than I do het, girlslash, or gen.)

Though now I have this image of one of Lorne's duties being to follow John around with smelling salts and catch him every time Ronon makes him faint. Seriously, why is my brain in crackfic mode today?

[identity profile] ultranos-fic.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 06:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Or wonder which of her "white knights" are going to rescue her when she's stuck on a transporter in Atlantis.

Now I want to read the fic where Elizabeth thinks this, and then realizes wow, she must have hit her head harder than she thought, and rescues herself. Or, barring that, thinks that in an utterly sarcastic tone since she'll have to be the one rescuing the "knights" since they all ended up in far worse situations. (The Queen is the scariest piece on the chessboard for a reason, people! If you're going to use chess motifs, use 'em right.)
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (Default)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2009-09-16 06:52 pm (UTC)(link)
*splorfles* See, now I have to find [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com]'s fic where Elizabeth gets crabby at being stuck in an elevator. Or pester her to find it for me. I'm pretty sure it's [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com] that wrote it, though.

By the way, I blame you for me starting on the sequel to The Hidden Lore of Old Ocen. The maybe brilliant idea to let Vala take over the damn story write it from Vala's POV, though, I blame me for.

[identity profile] melyanna.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 07:07 pm (UTC)(link)
It appears to be in one of your locked entries. I've reposted it. (http://melyanna.livejournal.com/551033.html)
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (Default)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2009-09-16 07:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Huh. I could've sworn you'd posted it separately. I should've just asked you in the first place, but then I wouldn't have re-found the rather enjoyable Ronon-doesn't-get-Elizabeth fic.

[identity profile] ultranos-fic.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 08:15 pm (UTC)(link)
I blame you for me starting on the sequel to The Hidden Lore of Old Ocean.

I will happily take blame for that one.

Also, Vala's POV taking over the whole story? Really, this is unexpected? You should know better by now.
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (Default)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2009-09-16 08:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Hopefully one of the two Lovecraft-based Wikis I've found will have decent info on the Old Ones and the various other creatures. I need to develop a hierarchy in the AU.

Well. It's more a matter of "want" than "need," but still.

Also. Yes. Vala's POV taking over wasn't entirely unexpected, but I had no idea that I wasn't going to have as much of Daniel's POV as I thought would end up in there. Did that sentence even make grammatical sense?

[identity profile] ultranos-fic.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 08:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooh, Lovecraft-based Wikis? *darts to look*

Ah, the old "want" vs. "need". Yeah, I fail that hard at times.

I don't know if it made grammatical sense, but it made logical sense? I understood what you meant. However, I am half-brain-dead right now and want a nap.

[identity profile] ayiana.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 06:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Though now I have this image of one of Lorne's duties being to follow John around with smelling salts and catch him every time Ronon makes him faint.

Okay, now I really want to read this story.
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (Default)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2009-09-16 06:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Wouldn't it be hilarious? As if poor Lorne isn't fanonically long-suffering enough as it is?

[identity profile] miera-c.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 06:34 pm (UTC)(link)
who say that all het writers do is write tired romance novel tropes, and that even het written by slash writers is better than het written by anyone else, because slash writers are so much more freed of tired heteronormative gender constructs

*growls*

There's so much bullshit wrapped up in that line of thinking. It pisses me off.

(Erm, that is, it's not you that's pissing me off, it's that excuse and people who wield it, which are not you.)
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (lizzie/shep/mckay gossip)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2009-09-16 07:16 pm (UTC)(link)
Isn't it annoying as fuck? I would deconstruct the reasons why that entire line of thinking is made of complete and utter fail, so I could c&p it every time I saw damn near the exact same thing posted (so many times now...), but I'm afraid that I'd give myself apoplexy while doing so. Not to mention go on a number of unnecessary tangents ranting on other things.

(I figured it out. *g*)

[identity profile] stealth-rose.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 03:40 pm (UTC)(link)
4. Nice bit of arrogance about how you're writing them better. Maybe the lack of feedback is proof that you aren't.

Hah. But the bar is set so looooooooooooooooow. It's not a lot of arrogance, when you look at it that way. ;)
ext_18106: (Default)

[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2009-09-17 12:21 am (UTC)(link)
BWAHAHAHAAHAH

[identity profile] ayiana.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 04:45 pm (UTC)(link)
... at least I write the women better than the show ever did

Wow. That's just ... Wow. Serious arrogance there.

And whining about feedback - on anything - makes me twitch.
ext_18106: (Default)

[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2009-09-17 12:17 am (UTC)(link)
Seriously, if I started whining about how my boyslash got no feedback...

[identity profile] lavidaessueno.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 05:39 pm (UTC)(link)
I just wanted to mention that based on the secret writer's original fandom, "gen" can mean "het." There are at least a couple of fandoms where gen can include romances, even erotic romances, but they're heterosexual in pairing.

[identity profile] miera-c.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 06:32 pm (UTC)(link)
Isn't the secret about SGA fandom? I'm pretty sure in SGA gen is not romance. Or are you saying the secret writer is actually from another fandom? *is easily confused*

[identity profile] lavidaessueno.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 06:39 pm (UTC)(link)
I have no idea what fandom the secret is from. I'm just saying that I don't immediately assume that "gen" means "not a romance" because my first fandoms used "gen" to mean "not slash," and it's possible others do the same.
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (Default)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2009-09-16 07:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Which fandom is this? Because I've invariably seen "gen" used to mean "no pairings whatsoever," and I'm curious to see if it's a fandom I've had experience with at all.

[identity profile] melyanna.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 07:20 pm (UTC)(link)
I've seen it before too, though honestly I couldn't tell you what fandom. I don't think it was one I was involved in, but I was in Star Wars, LotR, and Harry Potter at various times, so I came in contact with a lot of people from a lot of varied fandoms.
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (Default)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2009-09-16 08:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I've heard of it, but it seems to make no sense to me. Why would you separate out slash, but not het? Aside from a rather silly fear of slash cooties, perhaps.

[identity profile] lavidaessueno.livejournal.com 2009-09-17 05:09 am (UTC)(link)
In a fandom where most of the stories are slash and het is the exception :-)

[identity profile] frolicndetour.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 07:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I've mostly heard that gen fic could have pairings in it, so long as they weren't the focus of the story. (Much like the canon has some romance, but it's not about romance in the way that shippy fic is expected to be. Well, depending on the fandom, obviously.) Some people say the pairings have to be both canon and not the focus, others just that they need to be not the focus. I guess restricting the pairings to canon tends to also restrict them to het, since it's unfortunately still rare to get canon gay pairings.

So, it seems like everyone has a different definition. :)

[identity profile] lavidaessueno.livejournal.com 2009-09-17 05:12 am (UTC)(link)
Way back when, in early online Xena fandom days, the fandom used the terms "alt" and "gen." "Slash" in that fandom was perceived to be m/m, "alt" was f/f, and "gen" was m/f. This was years ago, and I think at some point the archives did start to distinguish between "gen" and "het," but for a while there you never saw "het" as a description.

There were a couple of other fandoms that used "gen" to mean "m/f," but I can't for the life of me remember which ones they were.
ext_26799: (rain)

[identity profile] nique.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 07:24 pm (UTC)(link)
...after reading over all the comments here, I feel like I must be the only damned person in the world who switches between gen, het, and slash preferences entirely on the basis of the particular fandom/characters involved.

Weird.
(deleted comment)
ext_26799: (Default)

[identity profile] nique.livejournal.com 2009-09-16 07:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, that's pretty much my feeling on the whole thing. If I'm reading or writing slash, I have reasons for it, same as if I'm writing gen or het. And those reasons, 99.9% of the time have absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the cast of the series. ...then again, a bunch of my fandoms either have no women, or have girls who are underage, so...

...that, and I won't write sex, period, with live-action shows. It's too weird when the character is actually a real human being, even if they're just an actor.
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (Default)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2009-09-16 08:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Actually, a number of the people commenting are exactly the same way.