It's rape o'clock! (BSG genderfail bingo list)

[lyssie]

I had a few dupes, apparently, and one that made no sense after sleeping. So there are 24, with the free square.

List behind the cut.



1. But the women were the active characters/drove the plot. (really? And what shows do you know where all the major male characters were dead by the finale?)
2. It's a dark show, people die. (yes, but generally only the women)
3. I just don't see it.
4. Sexism doesn't exist in their universe. (but it does here)
5. They had lesbians, that proves they're equal. (who were uniformly evil. gee.)
6. Of course babies make women crazy.
7. It only counts as genderfail when it happens to Kara or Roslin.
8. Tory was evil!
9. At least they're trying.
10. It's not that I hate women, it's just that Cally was a waste of space.
11. But Kara had to submit to her destiny through a rape fantasy sex dream.
12. Men died, too. (really? All the major male characters ARE STILL ALIVE)
13. Women don't like each other, why would they talk?
14. Raping a machine isn't rape.
15. Cally sucks for marrying her abuser. Poor Chief!
16. But Roslin and Kara were supposed to die, anyway, it's in their character arcs.
17. Gina was a Cylon whore anyway.
18. So, no women should die and we have to treat them like they're made of egg shells?
19. I didn't like Cally/Dee/Athena/Racetrack/Tory/Boomer/Seelix/Natalie/Six/Eight/D'Anna anyway.
20. Dee was a slut who deserved to die for cheating on Billy.
21. Your facts don't make you right.
22. Cally deserved it for being whiny/boring/stupid. (please insert any other female character the commenter was bashing/planning to bash)
23. The finale rocked! (yes. That wasn't what I was discussing, but thank you for playing)
24. It's not sexist that Roslin was reduced to being Adama's Girlfriend, you just don't understand love. (please replace Roslin with Athena and Adama with Helo as needed) eta: You can also stick Kara Thrace and Sam Anders in, but I don't think I've actually seen that comment/argument yet.

Free square: naked tai-chi. (and how many men did that, hrm?)


If you can think of more, I can edit/add/change. Most of these are things I've seen people say over the last few years, usually in response to "that was sort of hinky, gender-wise" or something to that effect.

2. In other news, the boys at Bridge are stealing from Dollhouse. Rape is so awesome. =D (link found courtesy havocthecat) eta: I suppose I should put a spoiler warning for Stargate: 90210 on that.

Comments

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

...

If they must steal, why can't they steal something DECENT?

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Because they are stupid, and decent things might sue them.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

One of the writers of the episode actually went on record saying something to the effect of "the dream signifies Kara submitting to her destiny that she can't escape".

And yes, he used 'submitting'. (which is why it's fail. Can you see a writer saying that about a MALE character's destiny? Not in this day and age. Men conquer destiny, or accept their lot in life. They don't submit to it)

To be fair, I honestly don't see it that way, myself, though I have my own issues with Maelstrom (chiefly the reset button where Starbuck is suddenly Adama's 'daughter' again).

[emmiere.livejournal.com]

Naked Tai-chi should share that space with resurrection. I know we saw Cavil, but what interesting difference between filming Six in that scene and him, no?

And that link, not my fandom, but WHAT THE HELL!!!

I didn't like Cally/Dee/Athena/Racetrack/Tory/Boomer/Seelix/Natalie/Six/Eight/D'Anna anyway.

And man, if someone ever used that full list as a comment? o_O

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

And man, if someone ever used that full list as a comment? o_O

...I think the internets might implode with impending "WTFNO."

[prozacpark.livejournal.com]

11. Yes, that. Just...I don't get how people fail to see issues with Kara's destiny when its entire initial set up is through Leoben's point of view, specifically in the context of Leoben forcing something on her that she doesn't want (which, yes, does have rape allusions written all over it even without the dream sequence). And then, um, it doesn't become any less problematic because it's God's plan, either since that was the set up, and it's kind of hard not to see Leoben's abuse in the light of the series showing Kara's mother's abuse as having been All for Her Own Good because Kara had a special destiny. So I can't help but think that Kara having a destiny, which Leoben all along insisted she did, kind of justifies his kidnapping and imprisoning of her? Sigh.

24. And, of course, Roslin's epic destiny is not really as important as finding a home with Adama, which made her feel alive for the first time ever or whatever the fuck she was going on about. Just..no.

And also, PLEASE, tell me that there aren't actually people out there who think Gina deserved what she got? *sticks to delusions*

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

Just...I don't get how people fail to see issues with Kara's destiny when its entire initial set up is through Leoben's point of view, specifically in the context of Leoben forcing something on her that she doesn't want (which, yes, does have rape allusions written all over it even without the dream sequence)

This, ugh. Though I'd have admittedly been more able to ignore it if the dream sequence hadn't made the rape subtext into text. :/

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

11. I'm sort of weirdly fluid on Kara's whole destiny thing. Merry went into detail about how it's sort of awesome and all. And I massively handwave large chunks of canon, so.

24. While I love that she got someone to love, I hate the idea that she isn't worthy of love/the human race isn't worthy of survival if she doesn't admit that love. Or something like that (I'm looking at you, head!Elosha!)

And also, PLEASE, tell me that there aren't actually people out there who think Gina deserved what she got?

Not a single person thinks that.

[cujoy.livejournal.com]

You know what else is interesting? All three of the remaining female characters - Ellen, Caprica & Athena - died at one point or another in the series, though because they were Cylons, they resurrected.

So ALL the women died.

[mfirefly10.livejournal.com]

THIS!!!

My favs are 2 and 13. And Grace Park TOTALLY agrees with you re: the Naked Tai-Chi/Cylon Ballet. Why couldn't we see some naked!Leoben karate?

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

And Grace Park TOTALLY agrees with you re: the Naked Tai-Chi/Cylon Ballet.

Really? I always love it when the actors agree with us. <3

[mfirefly10.livejournal.com]

She says in on one of the behind-the-scenes specials on the 4.5 DVDs. It may've been one of the video-blogs but I won't swear to that.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I know. And Caprica didn't get retconned alive until the end of season two, Ellen was dead for a season, and Athena was only dead for a few minutes.

BUT STILL. That doesn't count all the times Three had herself killed in her mad quest.

[morwen_peredhil]

I've seen most of those, I think. #21 is my favorite, in a makes-me-go-*stabbity* kind of way.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm all for interpreting the facts, and the way you can manipulate them, but they're FACTS. Black and white! You can't shade the truth with chocolate sauce. (or something like that)

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

1. Also, like, not really? In terms of driving the plot, I'd say women were equal at best. 4.0 was more female dominated, 4.5 was a bro-de-o. And still far more women died than men in both.

10. Fuck you. Er, not you. ;)

11. ZOMG where's your sense of humor?

15. You left out the end. "Cally sucks for marrying her abuser. Poor Chief!"

16. Seriously, how can you blame the writers for something that was IN THEIR CHARACTER ARCS??

I think we need one for "but what about reverse sexism, huh? Didja ever think about THAT." And the corollary "but people call Baltar names all the time!" Oh! And "Lee Adama is the true victim of misogyny."

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

ahem. "But what about the men?" I totally considered that one. Or "but the men are written bad, too" Which, fine. But that is derailing the discussion.

10. I've seen this applied to the others, too. It's just that I've seen Cally get it the most.

15. Whoops! I knew I forgot something =D

16. Their character arcs came from a box of cracker jacks, and the writers had no control! Aliens! That one time that one band visited the set, they used BLACK MAGIC to keep the character arcs where they were going!

[ebneter.livejournal.com]

23? Really?

Sorry, I guess I'm not a real feminist, then, although I've probably been one longer than you've been alive.

(Also, 11? Is way open to interpretation and yours is not necessarily the correct one.)

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

I don't think Lyssie is saying that if you liked the finale you're a bad feminist. IIRC she liked it too. I'm pretty sure she's saying that the one has nothing to do with the other. /speaking for people who can speak for themselves

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Oh, 11 is totally open to interpretation. That doesn't change the fact that one of the writers said something somewhat skeevy once. (it's shaky ground, and, honestly, not all of the bingo slots is exactly impossible to use as an argument)

And to further what Allie said, 23 is a derailment of the discussion. I know people who loved the finale like pie, but are the first to start pointing out Issues. I know people who hated it who are the first. I know people who were in the middle who are first. And there are certainly people on the other side of all those fences.

Well, I don't know all of those, but you get the idea. Everyone has their varying opinions and while discussing the finale in and of itself is valid, it's not really where all of the fail lies (or as Merry said, the finale has it, but it's just the culmination of the fail present in the series beforehand).

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

Oh, 11 is totally open to interpretation. That doesn't change the fact that one of the writers said something somewhat skeevy once. (it's shaky ground, and, honestly, not all of the bingo slots is exactly impossible to use as an argument)

I know no-one wants to be on the same side as Ann Coulter, but to me, it's like... look at what happens. Leoben abducts Kara. Leoben spends four months trying to brainwash Kara into being his Stepford Wife. It's strongly implied that he wants her to have sex with him: "it would be nice if you'd join me." He successfully forces her to kiss him and tell him she loves him. Ron himself says Kara has Stockholm syndrome. She's super-traumatized when she escapes because of what was done to her.

Then, in her vision, she's trying to cover up the symbol of her destiny, which Leoben - and her mother - always told her she had. Leoben pins her against the wall and after resisting for a moment, they have obviously consensual sex, but he's completely dominant. In the unedited version, they even have her do the "no no no, okay yes!" thing. While he's on top of her, as, er, the act is consummated, the mandala she'd been trying to paint over becomes uncovered.

I mean, obviously everything is "open to interpretation" - but I think that regardless of what they intended, the obvious interpretation is the most failtastic one. Sex with Leoben is symbolically equated with Kara's destiny, and she can't escape either. Even without the writers confirming it, that was always how I saw it. :(

(Which, obviously is not to say that Kara/Leoben shippers are rape-loving psychos. It's about the writing, not the characters.)

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

WHY HAVE I NEVER NOTICED THE PAINTBRUSH IN THAT ICON, ALLIE?

(I'm sorry, but I do not have thinky thoughts, because I generally agree with that interpretation)

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

See, it's the paintbrush that makes it hilarious. <3

[havocthecat]

OH, LOOK. 25 lovely reasons why I couldn't take watching the show more than sporadically past season two. (Maybe if Atlantis hadn't failed so hard at the same time, I'd have been able to take it.)

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Heh. It can be fast-forwarded through a lot now, though. This makes me pleased. I can pretend it's the Kara, Sam, Helo and Athena snark show.

[desert-vixen.livejournal.com]

Yes, after seeing part of the arc with the Pegasus (Adm Cain - maybe not right vessel name) with the blatant "rape-interrogation" scene, I couldn't continue watching. That was just TOO real for my taste, too much of an acknowledgement that rape can be considered a "tool" for dealing with uppity women and showing them who's boss. (I know there's other issues, like the whole Boomer = Cylon thing but still - that scene gave me the creeps.)

As for number 10, maybe you don't want to acknowledge it, but you DO. (Not you, lyssie of course, but people who would say that.) It's just like all the people who say "Well, what did she think was going to happen? Going out, drinking alcohol, dressing up... she should have been smarter." Like rape is an acceptable punishment for stupidity/bad judgement.

Sorry, I'll fold up my soapbox and go now.

DV

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Heh. No worries.

The weird thing is, I tried to turn it around, to think of, say, Kara using rape to interrogate Leoben that one time. And... I just couldn't see it happening. As much as Adama claims he could become her (and maybe her could, in s4), I just don't think even he could condone the rape of a prisoner of war. Cylon or no.

So, yes. The only people rape has been used against have been women.

Which is sad and pathetic.