lyssie | rambling pointlessness about Blood on the Scales.

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rambling pointlessness about Blood on the Scales.

A few notes on strategy. Er, and later stuff.

This has sort of been sitting in my head for a little while, and I meant to type it up before the episode aired, but it's ok I didn't as I have ~~a few~~ more things to add on in the end.

Spoilers, obviously, for Blood on the Scales.

Kara Thrace, love her though I do, simply cannot take back the Galactica on her own. (not while Ron is certain Adama is The Hero, at least). Her options are limited, once she realizes the civvies are arming themselves.

1. Get to CIC. But that's out, 'cause Gaeta hung up on her, and might be compromised.
2. Get to the flight deck, look for help. This one is more feasible, and has the added bonus of running across Lee, who can help.
3. If Adama has been taken, he's gonna be in the brig. Get to the brig, spring him.
4. Find the president, get her to safety (Tyrol had that thought, too, which is why I think he had the raptor shit planned, GODDAMN, I love that man again).

(here's where my memory of the timeline's a bit screwy. I know they get Mom and meet up with Dad and Tigh and head for the safety!Raptor, but I don't remember what order, and I don't think it's that important--)

As they found everyone outside the brig (and Adama and Tigh discovered the brig wasn't easy to get into--which means THEY were there to try springing any loyal to Dad and the Cylons and the hobbits and Caprica), they went from "save Adama" to "save the Pres and get both off the ship"

From there, if they're still on "take the ship back" mode, the next logical step is freeing the prisoners--except that's not true.

Instead, Lee and Kara go from sekrit raptor to a stop on the flight deck to witness Zarek coming in and discover that Adama and Tigh have been recaptured. Which means, rescue time again!

Now. Much as my 'ship side is all "And she went to save Sam!" I think he was only part of the equation. The big thing was Adama, so he could take back his ship.

So, prison break. And on the way out, Kara stops for a little more ammo, because she might need it, y'know.

I have actually seen more than one person saying Sam was stupid for stopping to get himself armed so he could help with the counter-mutiny.

Stop and re-read that sentence again, and ponder that.

Sam, a good fighter, ex-resistance member (AND LEADER) of TWO resistances, and pilot, is stupid for stopping to arm himself so he isn't just dead-weight and slowing them down or having to cower in a corner. I do not care what happens next. We're talking about him being smart and arming himself.

~~please note how Kara tells Lee to go on, she and Sam will catch up, because she knew (without looking), that Sam had stopped to arm himself, too~~

Now comes the bad luck. Kara and Sam are too busy to notice the marine until too late--Kara sings out, and Sam assumes she's got it covered and continues what he's doing (at that point, he couldn't have DONE ANYTHING--and I'm not sure he could have ducked, given how stiffly he was moving). Kara fires a second too late (let's be clear, here, I AM NOT BLAMING KARA, so get that thought out of your heads, NOW).

And the bullet ricochets off something, losing enough energy that it doesn't kill Sam on impact.

Yadda yadda, Kara tells everyone to leave and go save Adama/go hide out with Baltar's harem. And they leave her with Sam (Lee, for the record was all, "he'll bleed out!" and panicky that his boyfriend was injured).

I'm getting distracted here, because, seriously, I know I am not unbiased. At this point, I can't be. Still, if I stick someone else in that situation--Lee being shot or Chief or Helo or Sharon--I can't actually imagine Kara leaving them to die alone.

But I can still imagine everyone else leaving them (not Sharon or Karl if it was Sharon or Karl, obviously). Because at this point, they still need to free the old man and save him from gods know what. And stopping to take an injured person to Cottle is going to slow them down and could cost them the ship.

One of the episode-reaction posts I came across was lamenting about how Kara went from shooting things and being crazy-awesome to being taken out of the action and being reduced to just a waste of space that was All About Sam.

And I don't know. Are there more people who think that way? Who are upset that Kara is now 'reduced' to lugging her dead-weight husband to Cottle?

I'm also confused, because I don't actually see Kara saving Sam as a destruction of her awesome.

Hell, I don't know about the rest of you, but I kind of think if Kara had just walked away from Sam, leaving him to die, that my opinion of her would be in the crapper. To me, a strong woman isn't just someone who can shoot a gun and kick the bad guys in the head. A strong woman is someone who stands up for what she believes, who uses her own resources and brain to keep those she loves safe and whole.

A strong character is someone who will die for those they love.

Now, Kara's motives may not be that sparkling clean. Kara may just be all guilty about her treatment of Sam, but... I can't really see it that way.

And to put the shoe on the other foot, Sam would have done the same--he shot Gaeta, after all. And that wasn't because of military chain of command. That was in support of Kara. (and if Kara were the one shot, how many people would be screaming about her being a 'damsel in distress in need of saving'? hrm?)

So. Really, I'm ok with the fact that, the second Sam was shot Kara's priorities changed from "save the ship" to "save Sam". Kara doesn't know what she is, she doesn't know what will happen in the future, she just knows that she can't leave Sam.

It's a logical follow-through of what she's been dealing with over the last few episodes.

And it's not like she made everyone help her save Sam. She sent them off to liberate the Admiral, because she knew that one more person wasn't going to make that much of a difference especially if her head wasn't in the game.

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I have actually seen more than one person saying Sam was stupid for stopping to get himself armed so he could help with the counter-mutiny.

o.0 I mean yeah, maybe he didn't realize how badly he was injured - maybe that slowed his reaction time a little - but that's a pretty standard heroic flaw. Does anyone think Kara wouldn't have stopped to pick up a gun and try to help fight after she'd been beaten up? And you know if Lee did it, everyone would be squeeing their heads off. Including probably me, to be fair, just, you know, more quietly. ;)

Also, I'm not even sure his injury had anything to do with it, the way it played out.

(Lee, for the record was all, "he'll bleed out!" and panicky that his boyfriend was injured).

<3
And Tigh was all, but I have so save MY boyfriend.

I'm also confused, because I don't actually see Kara saving Sam as a destruction of her awesome.

I kinda think that hauling 6'3 of solid muscle around is possibly even more badass than tagging along with the counter-mutiny group. Not that she'd have been just tagging along, but the toasters had it covered at that point. :P

Kara may just be all guilty about her treatment of Sam,

... Our Kara? :P

Ugh, I'm glad I haven't read too many posts bashing Kara for not leaving a wounded man alone to die. Or for being upset that her husband of more than a year had just been shot right in front of her. Shipping makes ya crazy, and not always in the fun way. :/

Kara did stop to get herself armed again.... But she hadn't taken a beating.

Tigh was very torn between Adama and Caprica, there. But he knew Caprica could go somewhere safe, so. Adama won the coin toss.

I kinda think that hauling 6'3 of solid muscle around is possibly even more badass than tagging along with the counter-mutiny group

This. (and Katee really was hauling him around in that one scene, which makes me <3 <3 <3 <3 her so). But I'm also trying to figure out if I'm confused, or if it really is, again, demeaning to women that she Stuck By Her Man.

Shipping makes ya crazy, and not always in the fun way

I actually don't know if the person whose post I read is a shipper, and I can see how it would be jarring to go from Kara the Gunhappy to Kara the Crawling Along.

But shipping does make you crazy, as those idiots on Skiffy display daily (and I mean ALL of them). Most of the shippers on lj are pretty sane, or at least better at not being an asshole in public.

(deleted comment)

ok, good. I was... beginning to worry that my brain was wrong.

(deleted comment)

STAY STRONG.

Listen to

palmetto, for she is very wise.

I think that Kara dragging Sam to Cottle alone was the awesome.

I just watched that again and he is so much bigger then her. And she knew that there was noone to spare to help her because the admiral still needed saving and ship had to be retaken. And besides the others still needed to bring Hera and Helo to safety (Caprica could've managed on herself :)). So she made them all go and leave her and Sam. And then she dragged her deadweight, impossibly big husband to the doctor through the ship full of people who wanted to kill them. If that's not awesome I don't know what is.

And it was so Kara. Same as when she crashed on that planet or fought Six - she never gives up even if all the odds are against her. She also thinks she can do anything all by herself that's why I think her asking Romo for help showed how desperate she was.

I also think that it would've been strange if she made any other decision. Part of being good guys is that you don't leave your wounded behind. And Lee and Tigh and Athena all wanted to help her. They didn't want to leave Sam either. She made them. She kept the big picture in her mind. So she made them go. She stayed because Sam was hers. Hers to take care of.

If that's not awesome I don't know what is.

OK. Yes. Word, on that. Because it is awesome. And almost impossible to imagine.

As for Romo, I was actually stunned that she asked (almost begged) for his help, because Kara doesn't exactly ask for help all that often.

I can see Kara leaving Tigh or Caprica behind, she has no connection to Caprica (there was that one Six who tried to kill her, though) and Tigh is... Tigh would probably have not wanted anyone to stay (and Caprica would never have left Tigh). But Lee, Athena or Helo? Shit, Kara would have stayed for them--except Helo or Athena would have told HER to go if it were either of them (Kara is not winning that argument with Sharon).

As for Romo, I was actually stunned that she asked (almost begged) for his help, because Kara doesn't exactly ask for help all that often.

I think it showed how desperate she was. And how much she cares. Because Sam was heavy and dieing and you can't carry anyone on stubbornness and pride.

Tigh has Caprica and Caprica has Tigh. Kara has Sam and she doesn't deal well with loss. He cannot die and she won't let him. Not when she can save him. Anything else would be wrong. And out of character.

Yes. All of that.

Also, Caprica would have smacked a bitch who tried to help her save Tigh.

Bleargh, some people are morons, obvs.

To me, a strong woman isn't just someone who can shoot a gun and kick the bad guys in the head. A strong woman is someone who stands up for what she believes, who uses her own resources and brain to keep those she loves safe and whole.

A strong character is someone who will die for those they love.

Yes, yes. To me, the ep was at least partly about having to figure out what and in whom you put your trust and faith, literally with a gun held to your head. Kara didn't ditch her Cylon husband; she stuck by him, because she's one of the ones who has learned to put a person over ideas, to put people and their individual actions and personalities over the idea of Cylon or Humanity.

some people are morons, obvs.

Yes. Yes they are.

And exactly and word and YES to your last paragraph. Kara has moved past (and not just because she has no frakking clue what she is) seeing them as the enemy. They're individuals, first. And humans are just as much the enemy (especially the mutineers).

I don't think i've seen anyone say she should have left him there to die...most of what i've seen, from ALL sides, has been positive about her staying to help him.

However. I've seen quite a bit about how she would have done that for anyone, so the fact that it just happens to be Sam means nothing...which er, no. Lee, Helo, the other major char., yes. Anyone else? No. And yeah, my shipper crazy hat is firmly attached at this point, but I think hauling your 6'3 dead weight cylon husband around, while SOBBING and calling him baby and basically trying not to panic does mean something.

I haven't seen people say it out-right, but I have seen more than one implication that she didn't need to save him/could have delegated someone else, so she could continue being all crazy-ass and shooting people.

The thing about Helo, though, is that Sharon would been all "bitchpls". And if it had been Lee? I'm betting there would have been even more of an argument, with Sam being the one hauling Lee off to Cottle.

I... don't know how or why people are rading these scenes in any other way?

Why the hell would Kara ever leave Sam? I think it's well established she has a thing about saving him, and vice versa. And in that moment, if she had just left him to bleed out... hell. I like to believe she wouldn't easily leave anyone like that, even an uneasy ally, let alone her husband. She wouldn't even have to think about staying with Sam.

I even doubt she would leave Leoben in that situation. Think about that.

People think she should sacrifice that to liberating the ship? When other people can go on ahead just as well? PFFT.

Edited 2009-02-08 21:55 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I have no response because I'm struck at the thought that, if Leoben were there, Kara would have still stayed--but if Leoben were injured, she'd make Sam take him to Cottle.

Which makes no sense, except that I think Sam has moved past "lemme beat him up". I think.

I think I blame Lizbeth.

Kara would stay to help Leoben and Sam would stay to help Kara -- even though she'd probably cuss him out for it. Then she'd make him help her. And probably take off directly after. She doesn't seem to like aftermath, much.

AHA. Thank you. Meanwhile, Lee would be all "WTF. CYLON." And Sharon would just roll her eyes and follow Tigh.

Because, honestly, in the end? They only needed four people to save Adama. And none of them were Kara or Sam, anyway.

I do agree she'd be more conflicted about Leoben... but Sam would definitely be hanging around, and she'd probably take the chance to unload both of them in the infirmary. :P

Right? That'd be bonus fire power on Kara's part, but Sam was already moving mighty slow. But anyway, it wasn't like she was prevented from being an asset by something stpuid. She wouldn't hace been much EXTRA help and also Sam got shot.

they went from "save Adama" to "save the Pres and get both off the ship"

Save the president, save the world? I think you're spot on for all your bias.

Hah. Thank you.

No surprise that I agree the destruction of her awesome would have been if she'd just upped and left him. I mean, really, leaving her husband to die alone? How hypocritical would that be anyway -- she'll KILL humans in support of Adama and the Cylon alliance but when it comes to something far more personal, she's supposed to walk away? Stupid, and that's even without any calculation of her actual FEELINGS FOR HIM. And any reading that suggests women have to be unfeeling is just ... really ignorant of being human.

Anyway like H, I've seen a lot more comments that basically dismiss Kara's actions as "she'd do it for anyone" - to which I also call b.s. Kara's perfectly capable of telling someone else to stay behind. Like, I believe she loves Helo as a good friend, but there's no way she'd be lugging his ass to Cottle - she'd let/tell Sharon to do it. I wonder actually, given that Sam was hurt (I don't think he was all THAT badly hurt -- bruised up, but nowhere near in as bad shape as Helo), Kara might have let Sam carry LEE to Cottle, if Lee had gotten hit instead so the fitter person could have continued in the fight. Perhaps not, I dunno. But I bet we'd be hearing a whole lot less of "it doesn't mean anything" if Kara'd been dragging Lee to sickbay. Funny how it works that way. *rolls eyes*

With Lee, Sam might have convinced Kara to let him take him--despite their differences, both men respect (and seem to like) each other (Lee, for instance, really WAS WORRIED about Sam).

With Helo? Sharon would have been there before Kara and there would have been no question who was hauling his tree-like ass to Cottle.

~~With Leoben, Sam and Kara would both have taken him.~~

well, yeah, Helo's a bad example with Sharon right there, but Kara certainly wouldn't try to fight her on it or anything. She'd just go. And if Sharon weren't there, I still doubt Kara would be the one trying it. And Helo's her closest BFF. So this crap that she'd do it for anyone- piffle!

~~and possibly there would be porn on the way, somehow. I don't know how, but there should be~~

I thought she and Lee went to get Roslin first mainly because a) she's Prez, b) she's a civvie, and they're obligated to protect her. Once they got her to safety, THEN they decided to go looking for Adama. That said, I think Tyrol originally got the raptor ready to get Baltar out of there, and Roslin was a nice bonus... I don't think he would've gone looking for her. But he never planned on leaving the ship either.

When the whole attack on Sam started, I saw it coming and covered my eyes. I'm a wimp. But I don't like to see him getting shot... and shot in the neck? Ick. Poor Sammy. I wish both Kara and Sam had been smarter about it, rather than leaving themselves exposed in the middle of the hallway -- maybe drag one of the marines to the corner and then search them, or take turns...

I love Kara sending everyone else off to save Adama because they all have their job to do, and hers is to protect the one guy who has always had her back. Plus, in the long run, they have to get the ship back so Sam has a chance of surviving. And now that he's a Cylon, I think Kara feels weirdly more protective of him, since the whole resistance is about killing them. I think she and Sam have more in common now, since they both have no idea who/what they are... but they're still there for each other.

I wonder if Lee had been shot, what would've happened. I think Kara would've wanted to stay and take care of her friend, but he would remind her of saving Adama. I imagine she might even leave Sharon or Sam behind to help Lee out, while she goes on to lead the team. I don't think she would've stayed with him, because he would've wanted her to save his father... but Sam needed someone, and who better than his wife? She wouldn't have left Sam. The only other option I was worried about was that he was on the verge of dying and she'd have to end his misery or something. I could see them doing that on BSG, because they suck like that. Needless to say, I'm happy with the way it turned out.

That said, I think Tyrol originally got the raptor ready to get Baltar out of there, and Roslin was a nice bonus

I... that is actually weird and frightening, but makes a lot of sense--because Gaius is, in some ways, someone that Galen respects. And he's someone who COULD keep the people of the fleet together, if the Galactica goes. Not that I think Chief was planning for that, but.

I wish both Kara and Sam had been smarter about it, rather than leaving themselves exposed in the middle of the hallway

Yes. I think they were both too certain the area was safe for the moment, so no one was watching their backs. And there was so much confusion going on, too.

I was a bit worried about Kara administering a bullet to the brain to send him off, but. Since they won't kill Adama, I couldn't see them doing that, either. ~~They're leaving that to Lizbeth an' me, obvsly~~

With Lee, it would depend on if he were conscious. I know this is really colored by my bias, but I can see Kara leaving Lee to Sam and stalking off to save Adama ~~that man who doesn't hug her and likes calling her a cancer~~.

I... that is actually weird and frightening, but makes a lot of sense--because Gaius is, in some ways, someone that Galen respects. And he's someone who COULD keep the people of the fleet together, if the Galactica goes. Not that I think Chief was planning for that, but.

Yeah, at the beginning, the Chief is hanging out with Baltar's cult... and in previous eps, you really see him buying into Gaius as a leader. Particularly now that he's realized he's a Cylon.

With Lee, it would depend on if he were conscious. I know this is really colored by my bias, but I can see Kara leaving Lee to Sam and stalking off to save Adama that man who doesn't hug her and likes calling her a cancer.

Heh, I don't think it's that biased because I can see the exact same thing happening: "Boys, take care of each other" and then Kara would move out with Sharon guarding her six. Gah, I really don't like Adama all that much... I used to, way back when, but he just irks me now. Sigh.

Well, I told Meres last night that I sort of want Adama dead, so. I'm up there with not liking him much at all right now. There's only so much tooth-brushing and pointlessness I can take before it over-shadows the bad-assery.

I think this episode is pretty awesome not only because of what played out on screen, but how so many people can have such different interpretations of what they saw.

The one comment on the "scene" that I saw from a Kara/Lee shipper (a sane and very eloquent one - it's also funny how you have to make that distinction) was that she wasn't buying that Kara suddenly realized her love for Sam because he got shot. My reaction was pretty much "Bwah?" But then again, I'm one that likes Kara better with Sam, and thinks Kara and Lee are so much more interesting as the badass buddies as opposed to destined true lovers.

One of the episode-reaction posts I came across was lamenting about how Kara went from shooting things and being crazy-awesome to being taken out of the action and being reduced to just a waste of space that was All About Sam.

And I don't know. Are there more people who think that way? Who are upset that Kara is now 'reduced' to lugging her dead-weight husband to Cottle?

I'm also confused, because I don't actually see Kara saving Sam as a destruction of her awesome.

I'm too confused, but then the way that scene played out is one of my favorite fictional devices. A tough woman in the middle of a bid situation fighting her way out? Cool. The above with the one she loves in harm's way as well? Awesome. I can watch and read many variations on that scene, and if I'm behind the 'ship in question, I am a captive audience.

And so it always pisses me off after something like that when people bitch about the woman showing emotion. I totally agree that if she looked over at Sam bleeding, shrugged her shoulders and moved on would have made her so less awesome and would have left me chucking large objects on the TV. I'm never going to understand why a woman who is shown to be 'tough' is suddenly made weak the moment she shows emotion towards the one she loves, especially if it's grief over the idea of losing him.

AHA. I knew I had a comment still out there to reply to.

was that she wasn't buying that Kara suddenly realized her love for Sam because he got shot. My reaction was pretty much "Bwah?"

Your reaction is pretty close to mine, if only because I never ever thought Kara didn't love him (and she certainly knew that she did). But for Kara, love is a bit different and twisted, thanks to her mother. And expressing it isn't the easiest thing ever.

I totally agree that if she looked over at Sam bleeding, shrugged her shoulders and moved on would have made her so less awesome

And the thing is, even if it had been Athena, Helo, Lee, Caprica, etc--hell, Leoben as Meres and I were joking further up--I still don't think she would have left them. There might have been delegation of the task (Caprica being Tigh's responsibility, in a way; and 'Thena would smack Kara for Helo), but Kara is not someone who will leave someone she loves/care about behind.

Ok. She might have left Tigh. Especially if he were conscious and shouting at her.

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rambling pointlessness about Blood on the Scales.

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