*gets all serious for a moment*

[lyssie]

1. Everyone remembers the failtasticness of Joe M. from SG: Atlantis noting "hey, one of our dead chicks was a lesbian!", right? Well, Jane Espenson has sort of done her own stupid gaffe in regards to lesbians. Namely, she was quoted recently as saying (paraphrased) [BSG] has done lesbians, but we haven't had any gay men and we thought it was time.

Really? Done lesbians? What, you mean two women, both evil and both dead were considered enough lesbians by you? I guess a few more would have ruined the show with its lesbianism. Or something. Showing lesbians in a positive light = bad?

Because that's really sort of fucking fail right there.

Not to mention, gay men are now trendy, apparently.

2. I've seen two episodes of Psych. Two (it was amusing, but I've got other things to watch). My assumption, after watching these episodes was that, given Fandom's love of buddycop/almostbrother/etc pairings, Gus/Shawn was the fandom bicycle OTP that ate fandom.

However, according to a recent fandom secret, it's not. And reading the comments from people who don't ship it?

Really? You people find it too incesty? Their friendship is too perfect to ruin? In just this one single instance, you don't want to ruin the sanctity of their 'buddy-ness'?

What?

The failboat called for your asses.

Comments

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yes, the Psych secret confused me. Mind you, I think the writers are blatantly writing Shawn/Gus (there are several episodes where they pretty much stop pretending) and wish they'd stop pushing Juliet at Shawn to hide it (though Juliet/Shawn is cute, but she could do so much better).

I skipped the comments though...were they really doing the "we must not ruin the sanctity of their pure friendship" thing?

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Well, that is taking their replies to a ridiculous persiflagey extreme, but yes. In essence, slashing them would be ruining their Awesome Friendship.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I am amused by this, as they like to accuse those who aren't fans of slash of whining about that.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

YES, THIS. I was reading comments from people explaining why they don't slash them (but slash other pairings), and just being BOGGLED.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

I really think the problem with Juliet/Shawn has more to do with the actors being married in RL than writing. Married folks often have anti-romantic chemistry on TV.

And also that Shawn/Gus are so married.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I forgot they were married in RL! Actually, I wonder if that's part of why it gets pushed so much? for characters, the problem I have is that...eeer....Juliet needs an adult. I like it when they're doing "he has puppy love and she thinks he's cute, but she has an 'adults only' policy" but not as much when they're "OTP!!"

Gus's parents even essentially "gave" him to Shawn. Shawn gets jealous over Gus's ex. Who essentially was a female Shawn. It's just so...blatant. And I'm not even a slash fan. (I'm not anti-slash until we get to the female character bashing and fandom doublestandards, just not into it.) And I can't help but think Juliet/Lassiter would be cute...

[havocthecat]

Gosh, Jane Espensen? Fucking up lesbian relationships? I WONDER IF SHE'S BEEN THERE BEFORE?

As to Psych, what? Gus/Shawn ISN'T the main OTP? What? Seriously?

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I thought I'd gotten her name wrong. sigh.

YES. I am... I was realizing that I'm not exactly glad she's in the BSG writers' room. Her track record with female characters is sucking more and more.

(the sad thing is, I was HAPPY there was a woman there)

No, apparently the main OTP that ate fandom is Shawn/Lassiter. I don't even know who Lassiter IS.

[havocthecat]

Shawn/Lassiter? OMG. Okay, is this when I make catty comments that no one wants to slash with the black guy who is, in fact, pretty clearly acting like a boyfriend on TV.

I need to get Psych on DVD. Seriously.

But yeah. I liked BtVS, but when it comes to lesbian characters, not so much. Ty, Jane Espenson. *checks IMDB* Yep, I was right, she was involved with Seeing Red and Villains and that whole stupid arc. And people wonder why I'm leery of Dollhouse?

[rose-griffes.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I have a friend who recently started reading fanfic, for Psych in particular. She's not into slash but even she noticed that the obvious pairing of Gus/Shawn was totally overlooked and that just maybe this might possibly have something to do with color.

Ugh.

[nicole-anell.livejournal.com]

Whoa whoa, I don't think Jane Espenson had anything to do with "Seeing Red" or the rest of it, outside of being a general staff writer/producer. That was Whedon's idea and other people's scripts. She was *around* for it.

[havocthecat]

She was listed as supervising producer on both Seeing Red and Villians. That seems to me like more than "around for it."

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

I believe that failboat is called racism.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

It causes me sorrow to say that you're probably right about that.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Yes. Yes it is. It might not be deliberate, it might be subconscious, but it's there.

[aj.livejournal.com]

Gus could do SO MUCH BETTER. Dude, his mom's Phylicia Rashad!

I mostly watch to see Corbin Bernson be cranky.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Oh, Gus totally could. So could Jack, Daniel, Sam, Dean.... a long list of slashed boys could do so much better. AND YET.

(I think if I ever sat down to watch the show, I'd probably be watching it for Gus, who is AWESOME)

[aj.livejournal.com]

WORD.

And Gus is totally 100% Grad A adorable. And a sweet heart. I don't know why he doesn't have girlfriends other than that he and Shawn are married. I love him so much! (He got a lapdance from Patrick Swayze!)

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I <3 Gus. And I've only seen two episodes!

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

This is true, and it's really fucking sad. I remember, before I started paying more attention, that one of the questions asked in the 'behind the scenes' show prior to season one was "will there be a gay character?" and the response was pretty much dead silence and that sort of embarrassed tittering that people do.

Which is annoying, looking back on it. Because, dammit, people of different sexual orientations exist and if you're going to go around claiming to be cutting edge, fucking DO it.

And I'm sure there are people going, "but they gave you X, Y and Z characters, what more do you want?"

You know what I want? a show with the cast half-female, three-fourths non-white and some random percentage of half a dozen other things. I don't want it to be about yet another white guy and his issues about women.

And I also know I'm preaching to the choir, to some extent.

[havocthecat]

Didn't you hand out robes when we friended you?

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Yes! With gold sequins.

[lavidaessueno.livejournal.com]

and lip gloss?

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I might have kept that for myself. I keep losing them and having to buy more

[nicole-anell.livejournal.com]

You know what I want? a show with the cast half-female, three-fourths non-white and some random percentage of half a dozen other things.
Psst. You want "The Wire".

(Okay, they still have more men than women. But I'm just saying. Huge cast of mostly non-white characters in a variety of roles! Multiple gay characters! Would it kill you to have more like this, TV?)

[mamaboolj.livejournal.com]

I don't feel as strongly as you do about this, I think, but I have to say that I wish that BSG had made non-straight sexuality more of a "it's just the way things are" from the beginning rather than making a *point* of making Cain/Gina a couple with all the frakked upness of their characters and relationship and sticking this Gaeta/Hoshi thing into a webisode. The "done lesbians" idea pisses me off.

I recently said at lizardbeth_j's journal that I would have like, say, the Gaeta/Hoshi kiss more if they were making out at Joe's and no one way paying them any more attention than they pay to Kara/Sam or any other pair there.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

*nods* The idea that alternative sexualities are considered normal would have been nice, yes. And while that sort of seemed to be indicated in Razor, it's blown out of the water by there being not a single other lesbian pairing of any sort. (Tricia kissing herself doesn't count, sadly)

Yes! Making out! Even though the quick, "See you later, babe"-ness was nice in its normal-ness. STILL. Them laughing and leaning into each other at Joe's would have been good. Or holding hands, or--

Hell. Have Tigh bust them for FRATERNIZATION. You know. There should still be regs about that...

[ancarett]

Yeah, stereotyping much there, guys! (Though a small part of me says that Gina wasn't evil, but her character's story was written so badly and her lesbian relationship with Cain was entirely done to titillate the male audience so fucking triple fail with that, you BSG writers!)

Of course, in that same vein, they can comfort themselves that making Gaeta gay satisfies their diversity quota and, since he's been semi-evil in his bitchiness this past season, nobody important will really care anyway. *seethes*

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

This is true. Gina was a Cylon, but I'm not sure Cylons were intended to ever be inherently evil. And that certainly isn't the case now (and wasn't, even by that point in BSG canon). She was simply doing what she thought was right.

I think their relationship was also because they thought it would make people happy to confirm their suspicions. (I seem to recall someone basically saying that, somewhere. That it wasn't originally supposed to be taken that way, but the fandom thought it was, so they figured they'd confirm it and kill two birds with one stone).

Sigh. Poor Sparky. A cliche'd plotpoint to satisfy a quota.

[ancarett]

Poor Sparky. A cliche'd plotpoint to satisfy a quota.

If they make him a Cylon, too, (because, OMG, only teh evil hoomans and teh Cylons are teh gay!) I will be so v. v. cranky!

[lavidaessueno.livejournal.com]

Oh, nice. "Done lesbians" the same way you'd say "we've done Fight Club." Amazing how it's okay to treat gays and lesbians as plot devices, and be SO self-congratulatory about it. Note to Jane Espenson: Diversity-ur doin it wrong. Tokenism =/= diversity.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

This. I'm not saying it has to be frickin' Gaytopia, but sheesh. Odds are, someone is not straight. And more than one of them, even.

[lavidaessueno.livejournal.com]

Not to mention a society where childbearing is borderline compulsory after a near genocide: What effect does that have on gays and their relationships? Wouldn't non-breeders be the object of increased scorn after the Cylon attacks? That they are already the object of scorn is a given, simply based on the fact that there are no openly gay characters, not even in the background.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Hey, I'd even take that. Though I don't think it's quite that bad, or women in the military/unpregnant would also be getting lots of hate and glares. And they're sorta not.

[zahdahe.livejournal.com]

JE is good at writing obviosuly not so good with the verbal. Cost that statemtn paraphrased or not is still jackarsely stupid. To me both women showed how fierce and dedicated they were. Not just cos they are lesbians. What so fierccnes and strength and determination are only het traist. Well that's just bloody dumb! Gus and Shawn are married and any fool woman trying to get with one of them is going to find a world of complete and utter confusion rain downd on her! Poor Girl.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Good at writing some things, but I haven't been very impressed with her treatment of female characters in either BSG or Buffy.

[zahdahe.livejournal.com]

excuse the crappy spelling! getting over a very nasty virus running rampant here in the UK.

[mtgat]

I ... I ...

Whut?

*icons them all*

[rihansu.livejournal.com]

I don't even watch Psych but this makes me laugh and laugh. Not the racism aspect of it, it just amuses me when slash fans trip over their issues.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Yes. It also makes me want to throw things.

[foenix.livejournal.com]

But...but... BSG's lesbians were brought to us by Quiznos!

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Somehow, I don't think Quiznos knew that the lesbians they were supporting included one child-killer and rapist...

[nicole-anell.livejournal.com]

HEY! Gina didn't kill any kids. That was my *other* girlfriend.

...oh wait, you meant Cain there also, right?

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Here from galacticanews

You know, that comment annoyed me, too, and I'm loving the Gaeta/Hoshi story. (Just because I like someone being nice to Gaeta.) Ever since I did the rewatch, I've been a big believer that Gaeta is gay or bi... regardless, I've been a big believer that he was at one time in love with Baltar. It does not matter to me at all what Baltar thought about the situation (if he deigned to notice it)- Gaeta's feelings were what mattered to me. And heck, Alessandro Juliani came out and SAID he played Gaeta in love with Baltar.

So, if JE had said, "yeah, we hadn't planned on it, but AJ gave us some great stuff to work with, and we realized that this is there and decided to capitalize on it", great. Wonderful, all is good. But, "Well, we did lesbians and bisexual women, so now we need to do gay men to round out the complete set" doesn't sound nearly so sincere. Especially when the raw material was there. I mean, the reason that most people seem to believe Gaeta is gay isn't how he dresses and CERTAINLY isn't how he dances or any other stereotype, but the way he seems head-over-heels for Baltar.

It bugged me because I'd been saying this isn't tokenism- it's just developing a character in a way that seemed quite organic to me- and JE had to go and say, "no, Lissa, it's pretty much tokenism. We wanted to make it fair."

::sigh:: I hope they manage to stay together through the webisodes, even if we never see them together in 4.5.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

It's the... "now we fill this niche, now we fill that one..." tone of it that annoyed me. Because I actually think Gaeta needs some lovin' and he and Hoshi are sort of adorable.

And, dude, you can totally believe it developed organically. AJ could easily have been laying this ground-work all along (and his crush on Gaius was pretty obvious, y'know). Unfortunately, the writers aren't exactly the most articulate people.

Especially when trying to be 'edgy' and 'hip'.

Sigh.

[nicole-anell.livejournal.com]

Here via galacticanews and I love Jane Espenson to death, but that comment makes me want to bang my head into a wall until the headache goes away.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I think the writers as a whole tend to have the unfortunate tendency to talk out their ass without seriously thinking about what they're saying (sort of like how Russell t Davies thinks racism is 'edgylol' over in Doctor Who fandom).

[nicole-anell.livejournal.com]

Yep. I was also just thinking, it's exactly that kind of tokenism statement that contributes to... well, my most hated Bingo square in the Fandom Race Fight. I call it the United Colors of Benneton troll.

"I'm sick of them being 'PC' and throwing in a gay character! Why not also add a black guy, a lesbian, a Native American, an eskimo, and a transgendered person in a wheelchair? 'Cause those groups are important too, LOL! Where does it stop?"

Uh, yeah. Why NOT also do that? But obviously where it SHOULD stop is with the entire cast being straight, white, and male, right? Fucktard.

I swear, somebody was pulling that crap on the Skiffy board the other day... and he used Jane Espenson's quote as evidence of her trying to "appease" gay men. Heh.