lyssie | The Nova is in the Eye of the Beholder...

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The Nova is in the Eye of the Beholder...

One thing I meant to mention in my last post, and totally forgot, was that I'd finally installed the trial version of the program I'd found which would pull mp3s out of the soundtracks from avis/etc. I got four off my computer last night, broke down and bought batteries--

Ianto is such a splendid trooper, 1 gb that he is.

So, for this morning, I had 'He That Believeth in Me' (4.1), 'Rapture' (3....12?), 'Ties That Bind' (4.3) and 'Road Less Traveled' (4.5) to listen to. In that order. Which eventually caused notes-taking. (with expanded commentary)

Spoilers for 4.0, with implications for 4.5...

1. D'Anna thinks she's the Chosen One, and per the Hybrid's Prophecy that the 'Chosen One will see the faces of the Five in the Temple', she is. The prophecy didn't say whether D would survive the experience or if it would do her any good. It just said she'd see 'em.

Otoh, head!Six and Baltar think Baltar's the Chosen One. Amusingly enough, he sees only two of the faces of the Five in the temple.

How many Chosen Ones are there?

2. Cross-fandom thought: the supernova is caused by the Phoenix. Sadly, no broccoli people for Jean to eat. Tsk.

3. Cavil knows who the Final Five are. I've always thought this, I'll continue to think it until proven wrong by canon. He knows who they are and doesn't tell, maybe because there's no logical purpose served by the FF?

Think of it this way: knowing Anders, Chief, Tigh and Tory are the FF on New Caprica, what does that change? It destabilizes the resistance and removes it as a threat--as much as I love Roslin and Barolay, without Anders and Chief, half their crew would have been gone, not to mention trying to deal with their best friends, people who know them, being the enemy.

Cavil doesn't want the resistance gone. I think he thrived on it being around, and wanted it there, to prove his ideas that the humans needed annihilation and not integration (how Natalie and her peoples' idea of following their hearts must shake him)--this is also why he pushed to box D. Any deviation from program changes the parameters for the worse.

4. Is it any wonder Athena hates the Cylons and refuses to reintegrate with them? Even with Caprica helping her and Hera escape from the basestar, they still locked her up in the brig and have never trusted her. Not to mention, how long did Athena spend in the brig herself? On some level, she's probably very conscious that if she makes any sympathetic move towards the Cylons, there are some who will brand her a traitor.

5. Oh, Navigational markers. The ancients can see into the future to a supernova and a Cylon battle (Kara's gas giant and comet and three stars--lines I missed the first time I watched He That Be...), as well as the Ionian Nebula--but--why nuke Earth? Is this all a big object lesson for 'loving your neighbor as yourself'? Because that would be lame.

Also, nice echoing of previous navigational marker bullshit (not to mention, Sparky's anger and distrust of Kara in HTBiM)

6. Kara really isn't going to survive.

7. Cavil says Threes are fundamentally flawed--all Cylon models are fundamentally flawed, each flaw is different. (Eights--too trusting, Sixes--too full of love, Leobens--OH GOD, Dorals--no aggression, Simons--too Skiency, Cavils--too certain of their superiority...)

8. Please let the Centurion stuff have some sort of payoff. A revolt, a massacre, something. Laying the groundwork and not paying it off will be annoying and obnoxious.

9. Sam says, "you want to hurt me, is this what you need?" or something to that effect during Kara shoving him in TTB. I think he's almost laughing, too. And pissed. Also, after her question about "were we married", Trucco mumbles and it totally sounds like he says, "Hell, no. We got the scars to prove it." (which leads to more thoughts on their marriage and wondering if he strayed on her early on)

9b. On a completely shallow note, why are they so hot?

10. Secret Cylon meetings for the lose. SO SO STUPID. And you'd think Tigh would think about that! Instead, he's all, "no meeting in public, ONLY SEKRITLY." 'Cause there ain't nothin' suspicious about SEKRIT meetings. Nope.

11. Galen, dude, BABIES DO NOT EQUAL HAPPY FAMILIES. (no wonder she clocked your six) Also: as with Sam, Tyrol is a flip-flop of the normal gender role: ie, woman putting hubby first/having a baby to save their marriage.

12. Leoben is such a consummate con artist--which really does bring it all back to him as a gun-runner in the mini, I suppose. Also, Kara's gas giant painting is enough like where he abandoned his fleet, you'd think he'd mention that...

13. You know. Galen finding out Tory is responsible for Cally's 'suicide' had better be fucking awesome. Especially after such lines as, "I am here for you, Galen." (fuck no, you aren't, woman [quicknote: pls no Tory bashing, kthnx])

Awesome Galen quote: "Tory's got it in her head that we're the saviors of the human race. All I know is--if there is a God, he's laughing his ass off." (which leads to Chief being all snickery on desolate!Earth. ilu, Chief)

14. Kara tells Sam she's a different girl, but then denies the entire possibility that she's changed to Leoben. HEY, KARA. PICK A SIDE...

15. Leoben isn't the only con artist around. There's also Gaius.

16. Kara's safe and easy speech to Sam still hurts like hell. Also: how much did Sam want to laugh at her, "I'm not the same girl you married" line? Especially given he wasn't the same man (or even a man, at that).

17. Leoben names two factions amongst the Cylons--those who embrace what they are and those who fear what they are. Which is he? I seem to recall thinking he (and Natalie's hugs'n'kisses crew) were amongst those who feared what the Cylon are, but... hrm.

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Dude, what program is that? I'd be happy to go in with you to buy a full version because I SO. WANT. THAT.

Jodix Video mp3 Extractor. I've no idea if it's even an awesome program, but. It tanked on my dvds and some of the newer avis I've got.

Curses! I want me some audio rips because I always end up just listening to episodes of things and I kind of like that a lot. Damn my love for audio books and/or plays!

Reply to comments:

1. I think that D'Anna is clearly the chosen one. The Hybrid said that she would see the faces, and she did. Baltar did not. And I don't believe he would have survived being in that beam of light anymore then D'Anna did. (Only, dying wouldn't have worked out so well for him.) However, I also believe that there is probably something that we'll be revealed eventually regarding Head Six's insistance that Baltar is the chosen one.

2. I hope that Kara doesn't turn into Phoenix and eat Galactica.

3. Cavil absolutely knows who the FF are. I think it's significant that none of the Five, all major Resistance Leaders, were on the Cylon's death list even though Laura and Zarek were. CALLY was on the list but not her husband? I wonder what else Cavil knows but isn't saying.

6. ::Sniff:: I semi-dread the return for the second half of the season specifically because I don't want anyone to die.

8. I agree, there was too much set up for a potential Bullet-head rebellion to leave that one hanging.

9b. Damn, they are smokin'.

10. Secret Cylon meetings may be dumb, but I love them anyway.

13. Yes, sadly, it appears that they are setting up Tory as the unredeemable one.

14. Kara's characterization was all over the place in 4.0. The unfortunate result of the Kara-Fake-Death-Stunt, leading to the inevitable, "I just had a profound and important experience... But oh dear! I can't remember a single thing about it..." cliche. And I found it stange how completely the fleet dropped their suspicons that Kara might be a Cylon after she returned from her mission with... a bunch of Cylons in tow.

16. Sam is still a man. Just as Athena and Boomer and Caprica are clearly women. I think that's the point.

14. Maybe Kara's just been doing a lot of drugs? That can screw with things...

16. Yes. Which is why I suspect we won't ever find out the true nature of anything on the show. Sigh.

14. RESET BUTTON. It is their friend. Which is sad. Argh.

1. D'Anna thinks she's the Chosen One, and per the Hybrid's Prophecy that the 'Chosen One will see the faces of the Five in the Temple', she is. The prophecy didn't say whether D would survive the experience or if it would do her any good. It just said she'd see 'em.

Having come back from the 'dead' (boxing), I'm sure she feels that the Cylon God has chosen her not only to know the five, but to get them back into the cylon family. Hence her relentless actions in 'Revelations.'

I like your 'Cavil knows the FF' theory. Works for me.

6. Kara really isn't going to survive.

*plugs ears, hums loudly* NOT LISTENING.
I'm scared that you might be right. And it's the one thing that would just kill me dead. Well. Maybe that's a slight exaggeration, but still...

8. Please let the Centurion stuff have some sort of payoff. A revolt, a massacre, something. Laying the groundwork and not paying it off will be annoying and obnoxious.
And typical.

15. Leoben isn't the only con artist around. There's also Gaius.
Man, I love them both. Because the biggest lies they tell are to themselves. At some level they believe the lies they're telling everyone else.

I've had another thought about Cavil (I should put it in a new post, but)--

He's had a chance to mentally frak with every single one of the FF (even the one we don't know).

1. Tyrol and his dreams.
2. Member of Sam's resistance crew.
3. Prays with Tory and Roslin (and Tory contracted him, from the inference).
4. Tortures Tigh.

I'm not listening to my own point 6, either. Sigh.

I love the lies Gaius tries to tell himself. (oh, Gaius. :/)

1. at least three, since I'm pretty sure Kara counts too! The question is always, chosen for what? D'Anna - chosen for extinction for seeing the Five, I suspect.
3. It won't kill me if he does, but I don't think so. I think he doesn't WANT to know because it would screw everything up. Also, the torture of Tigh doesn't make sense to me if he knows.
4. ??? huh?
5. Pythia forgot to take her chamalla that day?
6. Neither is Sam. *cries*
7. yes. (though I don't know about no aggression for Doral - he's the one who shoots Caprica and nearly kills Gaius. I think of him as the enforcer of the gang, myself)
8. Hope so. Though I think there was some that got cut for time, IIRC
9. I don't remember thinking that was anything but him being sort of wearily sarcastic, but it's been awhile.

OF COURSE THEY ARE.

10. One, okay. Two, maybe. But they make it look like they were having Sekrit Cylon Tea Parties every afternoon at 4! duh.
11. Poor Chief, he's trying, but he's just so clueless. And it was way way too late for trying to fix things once she knew.
12. I think Leoben knew EXACTLY what she was painting from the moment he saw it. I remember wishing Kara would call him on it, but she didn't.
13. Hell yeah.
14. Kara is confuzzled.
16. Oh, yes, I'm sure he was biting his tongue to keep from telling her exactly how different he was...
17. I think Leoben embraces who he is. Cavil THINKS he does with all his "perfect machine" crap, but he's ignoring that they're more than that now. Leoben knows better, and realizes the Cylons, as much as the humans, are all messy and imperfect and stuff.

4. (I'm tackling this and trying to be articulate, we'll see)

I was following a random train of thought, about how Athena is so suspicious of Kara during Road Less Traveled/Faith/etc., and even earlier. And how uncaring she is towards the other Cylons (not being able to take the hand of the dying Eight)--and then

palmetto was noting that BSG women make grand gestures, like shooting Natalie--

And then I was remembering listening to Rapture and TTB, and how Pike and Roslin are so suspicious of anything Cylon (though by TTB, most of them don't think of Sharon as a Cylon so much)--Roslin's dressing-down of Helo still makes me wince, because on the one hand, she's right: they can't trust her. Otoh, she's wrong, because trust has to start somewhere, and Helo knows Sharon still loves him and Hera and wants what's best for them both.

Then when Sharon came back, she was mostly side-lined, so we don't know how the others treated her (as much as the Racial Issues of Cylons integrating into the fleet episode would have been annoying, I would have preferred it over what Woman King ended up being).

But I think that Athena does tend to not want to be killed or airlocked, on some level, she's always, always watching what she says and who she defends. In any given battle of Cylons vs Humans, Athena always has to bet for the Humans or risk someone labeling her a Cylon Sympathizer. And she spent way too much time in the brig--

Which was where Caprica came in, incidentally. Because Caprica, as of the end of 4.0, is still locked up in the brig. And I remember being surprised as hell that Athena even tried to see her/get her clothing (not that it happened). But the people of Galactica don't trust Cylons easily, even when their own pet Cylon vouches for them. And Caprica could have done any number of things, but she did none of them. She saved Hera and Athena, at the cost of her own standing amongst her own people.

Back to Athena, I think that she also misses being part of the Cylon--not consciously, maybe. But always feeling like she's being watched and weighed, judged for what she is and not what she's done can make anyone a little paranoid (whether she is being watched and judged or not).

In essence: I think Athena over-identifies as a human, because she's afraid of being branded a Cylon and airlocked.

(I think that made sense)

ok, I was just confused cuz you seemed to say that Athena had been in a cell on a Cylon ship, and yet if I corrected that to Caprica or Athena being on Galactica, then the other part didn't seem to fit. so there was obviously a piece missing in there, at least for my brain.

But yes, I think that's been pretty clear from her "you pick a side" speech, and even her actions in AmoS, that she feels she had to cast her lot with humanity completely. Mostly out of self-preservation (and not just herself, but Hera after they get her back, and clearly the terror of losing Hera AGAIN drives a lot of her actions later), but also loyalty to Helo and Adama. But then, I think she picked her side on Caprica and she knew it, from the time she decided to go with Helo and then helped the humans on Kobol. She's known for a long time that her survival depended on being helpful and trustworthy. And also, one of the other things she has to fight against is what Boomer did - being unaware, programmed. The RTF assumes that they're all like that, and she has to PROVE them wrong. Being helpful isn't enough, since Boomer was helpful - Sharon has to prove she doesn't have those hidden protocols,and that's hard to believe. Heck, there are viewers who still think she's a ticking time bomb, I'm sure half the RTF thinks she's going to pull a Boomer any minute. So that need to prove herself her own person, not controlled by the Cylons, also tends to force her into an extreme position.

But I'm less sure she'd be more of a Cylon if she had more choice. She has some disgust for them too - like she says, she knows what they are and what they're capable of. And she's pretty scathing talking to the other Eights when she doesn't have to playact for humans' benefit. Or when she's on the ship retrieving Hera, she didn't have much affection for the place. But of course, we can't know really, since she doesn't believe she has that choice to be more Cylon and still be accepted.

(which hopefully also makes sense as is late and my brain is fried)

Yes. It made sense, and--

But I'm less sure she'd be more of a Cylon if she had more choice.

I'm not sure she would be, either. But not having the choice, I tend to think somewhere she'd like to be.

2). Poor Jean. Now she'll have to find another galaxy to eat. Maybe that's what happened to Earth?!

6). She really, really won't. Which is still preferable to her ending up with Lee.

9b). They must, indeed, be very hot if you can sense the hotness over the soundtrack alone. ;)

14). I..never noticed that, but that's very interesting. In a way, Kara and Sam's issues starting from "Collaborators "(including the cut scene) are rooted in Kara feeling like a different person because of her experience on New Caprica. So that's sort of repeated here: Kara feels like she's changed, and part of that has to mean that her feelings for Sam have changed (not that they have, but still), and I think she almost thinks it has to work both ways? That his feelings for her would also change if he realizes that she's changed? So she pushes him away before it gets to that point in "Collaborators," and she's possibly doing something similar here.

With Leoben, it's a whole different struggle. Leoben, who kidnapped her and forced her into his narrative and kept insisting that she was different than what she thought, presents completely different issues for her. With him, she has to assert her identity. If she says she's changed (and become what he thought she would), then he's sort of won? Or even...it justifies what he did in her mind?

Or, um, you know: It can just be bad writing/characterization. Which is a lot more likely.

17). I think maybe Natalie's faction is the one who accepts who they are? In that they're actively trying to figure out the Final Five mystery while the others are afraid of going there (possibly out of fear of discovering something they don't want to about themselves).

2. HAHAHAHA. yes. (actually,

palmetto, damn her eyes, came up with an idea. *shakes fist)

6. I know. I'm usually going "LA LA LA" except that it's... so implied.

9b. It's not my fault I can picture them shoving each other around and being all porny.

14. I blame the reset button style of writing BSG is sadly good at. Sigh. There are times they've almost got it, and then...

17. I'm leaning that way, yes. (except Cavil, who knows, and just doesn't want anyone ELSE finding out, since he's a bastard like that)

1. Who isn't a special Chosen One at this point? Roslin, Kara, Baltar, D'Anna, Lee, (if we count the shining beacon of hope) all four of the the Dylons, Hera, Caprica, and whoever the 5th is. There are no normal people left!

3. I've been convinced of that ever since Rapture. I even predicted Tyrol would be a Cylon because Cavil bothered to talk him down about it. I'd love it if that turns out to be true.

4. Yeah... but those are all things that humans have done to her. The Cylons have actually been pretty damn nice to her, considering. They didn't even technically steal Hera! They saved her from dying of exposure and basically handed her right back. And she's not just anti-Cylon; she was ready to risk Dee's life and a bunch of innocent civilians just to avoid Helo taking another unpopular stance. I just find her self-serving to an extent that tries my sympathies.

5. I think it's that it's "all happened before," not that that's much better than seeing into the future. And I'm afraid you're right about Earth.

6. D: I keep hoping they won't kill her because it's redundant, but yeah, I'm fairly convinced at this point. And if Sam survives I'll eat my hat. Everyone I like!

11. God, I hated him so much in that episode. And the next one. Now HIM I wouldn't feel too bad about... so I'm sure he and Tory will live happily ever after. :P

13. I'm really worried it won't be. There are so many ways for it to suck.

16. Heh - One more thing for them to bond over. ;]

17. Well no one wants to put themselves on the side of "fear," but yeah, I thought Cavil was the "we're machines and should learn to embrace that" guy. Hmmm.

Edited 2008-10-18 09:12 (UTC)

1. Billy K. *misses him*

3. I want to find this out so bad--I want a lot of things, sadly.

4. Being selfish isn't exactly a bad thing. And I mostly wasn't talking about Woman King, which is a horrible example anyway, as the episode is crap. (and Lizbeth is far more articulate up there about it, too)

5. Which is so much better than googly-eyed aliens.

11. Yeah. I like Chief, and his sense of "we're all screwed" with smiles is kinda cute, but if he died, I wouldn't mourn. Which leads to--

13. Yeah. Sigh. My evil Cylon girlfriend is sorta one-dimensional, sadly.

16. *giggles* I hadn't thought of it that way... but... (also, I was reading Trucco's interview, and now I'm giggly about how rough sex is apparently Sam and Kara's "last true expression of love." )

17. Cavil is all about embracing machines. Leoben, I think, is all about embracing what they could be on top of machines. Or something.

1. The thing that suddenly comes to me is that the Hybrid never actually was specific about what temple so really the chosen one may not have even seen the five yet.
2. All the apparent references to X-men's phoenix storyline in BSG have me wondering if Jean Barolay isn't the final cylon. I'm sure if I knew more about X-men and thought about it long enough I could find more similarities between the two Jeans than red hair.That and the fact that Barolay was practically attached to Anders. I just can't buy that it was because she was in love with him, Kara was too nice to her for that.
4. I think what you say is true but I also think some of Athena's hostility toward Kara was old fashioned sibling rivalry. Athena spent a year in the brig and Starbuck got out in a few days because shes Daddy's favourite. Its a typical older sibling gripe, big sister Athena paved the way so when little sister comes along she gets an easy ride.
6. Maybe its just old fashioned denial but I don't think she will. As prox allie said been there done that, I think she'll wind up settled somehow with Sam simply because its the one thing that no one really expects and RDM
is perverse like that.
14. I'm not sure its so much as a reset button as it is an accurate portrayal years of abuse don't go away just because you realize mommy loves you. After everything Kara has been through any kind of healing will take years.
16. Perhaps the saddest part of that speech is that Sam being the safe and easy choice isn't such a bad thing. Its why she felt safe with Sam and why their relationship was easier that she chose Sam even if she doesn't realize it. Sam trusts Kara for one, and his love is a lot less conditional than Lee's its easier because she can just be herself. I could go on in this vein for ages but its all stuff that's not really news so I'll leave it with the highlights.

1. That's a very good point. I wonder how many temples there are--though I think the hybrid did specify the Temple of Five.

2. Bwah! Jean would make an excellent Phoenix, all cranky and bitchy and ready for revenge against the person who killed her... I don't think she's in love with Sam--although given her fangirling of Kara, maybe she's in love with both of them (hahah, does that make Sam Jean Grey and Kara and Jean Wolverine and Scott?)

4. This is also true! Hah. Good point.

6. I'm not even thinking about it. Hopefully.

14. But Mommy doesn't love her. It was more "Kara decides she loves Mommy." I just wish I could have felt like they had a plan for Kara's characterization.

16. That's a good point as well. I think I feel insulted and saddened by the concept that it's not a good thing that he's safe and good for her.

1. Honestly I think I just want D'anna to get a slap in the face when she realizes shes not as special as she thought she was.

2. In my personal fanfic world Jean Barolay is gay and in an on again off again relationship with Sergeant Mathias. It just seems like there should be some kind of an explanation for why she is so devoted to Sam so it bugs me, its one of those things that tend to get me stuck when I'm halfway through a chapter that was going great. Hopefully we'll see more of Jean in The Plan.

4. Its funny but in some ways Kara and Athena as sisters are the most believable familiar relationship on the show and Athena is definitely the "older" sister.

14. I think the whole point of the scrapbook was that Socrata actually did care, she was just had a screw loose and was a crappy parent.

16. I know, personally I don't think we're supposed to take much stock in anything Kara is saying in that scene because shes just saying whatever comes to mind to make Sam go away. Its just certain people take everything Kara says about Sam negatively.

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The Nova is in the Eye of the Beholder...

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