lyssie | working theory 101: why continue to bash Sam if he really doesn't threaten the twu wuv 4evah?

Eurgh. I have no idea who these people are (because I have an apocalypse-squick and thus don't watch BSG) but one part of fandom that always drives me mad is the segment that cannot just promote the ship they like - they have to obsessively tear down alternative ships, because when they say OTP, they really, really mean it. It gave me new perspective on idiotic multiple-generation vendettas, really.

HAH. Yes, this. I need to eta and note this is something more than one fandom does. hrm.

YES. Yes to all of this.

If they spent all that energy on creating Kara/Lee meta and fic without the Sam hatred, they'd be such happy people.
The happiest Kara/Lee shippers that I know are the ones who put all of their energy into pretties (fic/vids/graphics/etc) and don't even bother with talking about alternative ships.

wah. I have no Kara/Sam icon. Helo/Athena will have to do...

And even when they do, it's not with constant "omg Dee and Sam are horrible human beings who should diaf NOW NOW NOW" refrain. It's more, they like Sam (or Dee, though less people like Dee), and they want him happy and don't think Kara will accomplish that (or whatever). Sort of like my reasoning for it (I like Lee and Kara, just not together, but I don't want Lee dead)

I also know a couple of sane K/L shippers who DON'T like Sam, but don't hate him either. He doesn't ping them, he's just kind of off their radar.

I'm a multi-shipper (and personally believe Kara will find true love at the end of the series with her shiny new Viper, rather than with any man), but I know sane K/L shippers and sane K/A shippers. I also know insane shippers of both couples. The insane K/A shippers tend to make less noise, though. Either there aren't quite enough of them for a big impact, or they didn't have a long period as the default ship, and thus don't feel entitled to a happy ending.

More of the wacky people are on Skiffy, this is true on both sides.

But I am occasionally insane, I just never see the point in posting about it and being obnoxious. Writing porn makes me far happier.

If they were smart they'd just fold him in to the OTP.

It's the "hey! pretty!" theory of shipping... which I endorse.

hahahahah. That works objectively for me, but subjectively, I have issues which are probably grounded somewhere in my upbringing. But mostly in the "Sam Carter makes Kara happier than anyone, so, pfft" category.

Heh - you know, I think you may be on to something. That's my theory on why I've come across less Dee-bashing this season and more anti-Sam sentiment. Because in season three, Sam was still a 'guest' whose days were numbered and Dee was part of the cast and Lee's wife. Now they're divorced and Sam is one of the more important characters, and still connected to Kara, suddenly he's evil.

eta: I forgot one of the other things I was thinking at the time, which is that, subconsciously, they find Sam hot (which, he is), and they're trying to fight that, too.

Don't fight it! You can't fight it, sillies!

Edited 2008-09-30 15:31 (UTC)

I should've read this before I commented. I still see Dee-bashing! She's just onscreen less, so there's less to bash. I remember she had two lines in an episode and people were like EW, WHY IS SHE THERE? WHY DOES ANYONE TALK TO HER?

Then again, you're probably right that Anders hate has grown much stronger this season/hiatus and maybe surpassed Dee. I admire how it's shifted from boring to eeeeevil though. (Or occasionally: He's too perfect! He's uncomplicated, laid-back, and supportive! He's movie-star handsome and doesn't get into violent boxing matches with her, and that's why I hate him! Heh.)

P.S. I'm trying to imagine, like, hoping for Colonel Tigh to fall into an open manhole so my OTP can get back together. But I got nothin'. *pets Tigh* I'm very proud of myself.

Edited 2008-09-30 18:30 (UTC)

P.S. I'm trying to imagine, like, hoping for Colonel Tigh to fall into an open manhole so my OTP can get back together. But I got nothin'. *pets Tigh* I'm very proud of myself.

*laughs* Yes, you should be proud. This is a fine accomplishment!

The Dee-bashing along those lines baffles me SO MUCH. HOW is she supposed to run the ship (since it's pretty obvious no one else is) if no one talks to her? Tsk. Their logic and grasp of command logistics fails them.

The hate definitely got stronger when it became obvious he wasn't just going away. And then he got a continuing role AND was a viper pilot. *shock*

*ponders* The sad thing is, I'm not sure OT3 would work to solve that problem. Maybe if Ellen came along? (wacked-out head!OT4?)

Edited 2008-10-01 01:39 (UTC)

Of course, with Dee there's a whole other can of worms about how she's not an acceptable substitute for them in having sex with Lee (which gets skanky on a race-level after a while).

I mean, I fully admit I like Sam because I like him having sex with Kara ~~because I want to be him, yes~~. So there's definitely wacky identification issues going on. Though, with Kara, I think it's more physical and less personality-wise, given the prevalence of "Lee near-rapes her to prove his manliness" fic and how much it's loved. (pulling that statistic out of my hat, yay)

I mean, I fully admit I like Sam because I like him having sex with Kara because I want to be him, yes. So there's definitely wacky identification issues going on.

Hee. I have a giant crush on both halves of my OTP, speaking of wacky.

"Sometimes, I don't get it. Do Sam-bashers have a personal vendetta against Sam Anders? Because there's no point in constantly bashing him unless it is personal--or unless they feel threatened and truly suspect Kara/Sam is the True Luv Forevah kind. IE, THE LADY DOTH PROTEST TOO MUCH."

Huh. I think I might actually have hit the reason for the massive amount of hatred and dislike of Sam from certain quarters. It's that he threatens the otp, and does it well enough they can a) see the show ending with Kara and Sam together and, b) that doesn't sit well with any of them (and possibly they're feeling like chumps for believing the star-crossed lovers party line). So they are trying everything in their power to disprove that he loves Kara/she loves him."

Oh, hi there 90% of shipwars and character bashing (even well disguised character bashing) ever!

YES.

Sigh. Because this is universal, across shiplines and genders. Sam/Jack vs. Daniel, Jack/Daniel vs. Sam, McKay/Sheppard vs Teyla (or Weir). Etc., etc.

Which sucks.

Everyone should just have an orgy and get it over with.

"Sometimes, I don't get it. Do Sam-bashers have a personal vendetta against Sam Anders? Because there's no point in constantly bashing him unless it is personal--or unless they feel threatened and truly suspect Kara/Sam is the True Luv Forevah kind. IE, THE LADY DOTH PROTEST TOO MUCH."

Heh. To paraphrase: the most rabid K/L shippers are insecure, and that is the root cause of their tendancy to engage in character bashing.

Huh. I think I might actually have hit the reason for the massive amount of hatred and dislike of Sam from certain quarters. It's that he threatens the otp, and does it well enough they can a) see the show ending with Kara and Sam together and, b) that doesn't sit well with any of them.

::nods:: ::GLEES::

Which is sad. If they spent all that energy on creating Kara/Lee meta and fic without the Sam hatred, they'd be such happy people.

There are characters I hate too. But it makes me feel much happier to do a Michael Trucco pic spam then write an essay on why I hate so-and-so.

eta: I forgot one of the other things I was thinking at the time, which is that, subconsciously, they find Sam hot (which, he is), and they're trying to fight that, too.

Well, DUH!

My corollary to this theory has to do with Sam being a "jock" - and lots of "geeks" such as many fans, myself included happen to be, have an anti-jock reflex. Perhaps, the problem for some of them is that a jock once stole their lunch money and then dated the girl they liked. And that makes them really, really mad that a jock "got the girl" instead of their preferred choice. I also think that some of the most pungent Sam haters aren't really K/L shippers, so much as they are rabid Lee fans who are just desperate for Lee to "win". ;)

Edited 2008-09-30 16:27 (UTC)

some of the most pungent Sam haters aren't really K/L shippers, so much as they are rabid Lee fans who are just desperate for Lee to "win". ;)

Yeah, I think that really nails it -- there are a surprisingly large number of "K/L shippers" who don't even seem to actually like Kara. It amazes me that people ship a couple and don't like half of it. :-) A lot of the members of the shipper thread on Skiffy seem to fall into that category.

Edited 2008-09-30 21:21 (UTC)

It amazes me that people ship a couple and don't like half of it.

ahahahah. The Sam/Jack Shipper list on Yahoo, let me show you it, and its pure hatred of that hussy, Sam Carter....

You know, the jock thing baffled me for a long time, because I never classified Sam as a jock when he appeared. He was a resistance fighter and then a terrorist (a la Blake's 7, fighting the man and evil and all that--which, srsly, how could I not fall for him after that?). It wasn't until so much of fandom harped on the 'dumb jock' thing that I finally went, "Oh.... I guess he is?"

There are characters I hate too. But it makes me feel much happier to do a Michael Trucco pic spam then write an essay on why I hate so-and-so.

Ah! I also think a large part of my problem is that I don't hate anyone ~~who isn't dead or airlocked~~, so the constant hate-ons baffle me.

The Dee-hate baffles me even more, especially factoring in Nicole's point about them not being married anymore.

Heh, it's a fun theory. Except by this logic, you'd think Lee/Dualla was one of the greatest love stories of our generation. Having the audacity to screw Lee while Not Being Kara is a special-bus reason to hate a character at best, but on top of that? LEE AND DUALLA HAVE BROKEN UP. That fans are still talking about how much they hate her and wish she would die is beyond weird.

subconsciously, they find Sam hot (which, he is), and they're trying to fight that, too.
Why fight that? Jamie Bamber is not going to hear you through the teevee and get his feelings hurt.

Edited 2008-09-30 17:32 (UTC)

My favorite hypocrisy regarding the Lee/Dee haters is the way so many of them hate HER because HE married her. SHE had the nerve to marry HIM, even if she knew that HE had feelings for another, and that makes HER EVOL. However, the fact that HE had the nerve to ask HER to marry him, though he had feelings for another, just makes HIM a big ol' innocent woobie. Uh huh. ::points and laughs::

Hey, if Lee wants to get revenge-married, it's that bitch's fault. He and Kara are both notoriously easy to "manipulate." They never make their own choices or anything.

I always thought the underlying assumption of DIE FOR OUR SHIP (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DieForOurShip) is that these characters (a) have terrible judgment or (b) don't really like each other, so they'll only get together as a last resort when all their other options are removed. o_O

Speaking of hypocrisy -- I've learned that it's a downright terrible, unforgivable thing to choose someone you like (Lee) over another person who's totally devoted to you (Billy). Except when Lee does the same thing, only with the bonus of almost ruining two marriages in the process, that's totally cool.

Okay, do you know what you've done to me? I have reading due in less that three hours and I'm STILL reading that damn website instead. (Though, I still say the BSG mention needs to be updated.)

Re above, yeah, you're probably right. I've gotten the general sense that the overwhelming negative sentiment has switched targets, but that's probably as much about Sam being onscreen more than Dee as him being a more active threat to the ship. (Which is obviously connected to him being onscreen more than Dee... so... yeah. :P)

Speaking of hypocrisy -- I've learned that it's a downright terrible, unforgivable thing to choose someone you like (Lee) over another person who's totally devoted to you (Billy). Except when Lee does the same thing, only with the bonus of almost ruining two marriages in the process, that's totally cool.

Wow, when you put it that way... (But Lee was finally being true to himself. While Dee was just being a gold-digger! By turning down the top aide and likely successor to the President!)

Edited 2008-10-01 14:17 (UTC)

Okay, do you know what you've done to me? I have reading due in less that three hours and I'm STILL reading that damn website instead.
Sorry, I forgot how ridiculously addictive that site is. So many hyperlinks!

JB might HEAR THEM ON THE ASTRAL PLANE.

(also) ~~How dare you state such hypocrisy? Lee was saving her from a loveless marriage to that big dumb jock...~~ ...wait.

And this is why I love your meta. I will have more thinky thoughts later.

I believe I once before, prolly during BSG's second season, mentioned to you that I refer to this phenomenon as Riley Finn Syndrome. No, I remember now, it was a time you were writing rather about Sam and Pete on SG1. I coined the phrase when scarfmom was showing us La Femme Nikita, about Jurgen. The same thing probably accounts for most of the Martha Jones hatred in the world, too.

*nods* Yes! I did, and I think this also accounts for the Rose hatred, as well, though not all of it--some of it is backlash against the Rose fans (I can't count how many times I've seen someone say, "I liked her until her fans..." and I myself hate her if I see the hardcore kids going at it about how awesome she is, when objectively, I actually happen to like Rose.)

And I know this isn't as simple as it seems, I know there are lots of different factors, but I do think some of it is just their perceived threat in canon.

I don't know if its eve that simple after all I make fun of Lee for reasons that have anything to with the fact that I ship Kara/Sam. (I hate Lee for being a whiny, self absorbed, hypocrite). I also tend to think the really rabid haters are working out personal issues rather than just engaging in the usual shipper crap. I think its entirely possible that some people hate Sam and revere Lee because Lee is just as insecure as they are and Sam looks like the guy who stole their Prom date. I've known a few of these cases on the Jericho boards and you can always tell who they are because the reasons
for their supposed hatred never seem out of proportion or just plain weak. Like this one girl who apparently hated Emily because and I quote "all blonds are sluts".

:-) *Smiles*

Yea! I used to hate Sam in the very beginning and see him as a threat to the otp but the show does kind of meander in and out of ships and Kara isn't complete without either of the two (or Leoben, for that matter!), so I've decided to just sit back and relax about it all. The main thing is about true love, right, so who cares who Kara ends up in the end as long as it's the one she truly loves and is loved by... and isn't that part of the fun, finding out who the one really is?! (Okay, okay, hiatus is prbably messing with my brain)

It's funny because I often talk about Lee and Kara as if they are real people who make their own decisions re: their interactions and emotions (i.e. How could Lee fall down crying in the corridor of the Galactica over losing his wedding ring but never shed a tear after Kara dies?) but when it comes to Dee and Sam I don't get the hatred because they are so underwritten and get so much less screen time that I don't feel like they're real. I always remember they are characters, and frankly second-string characters in the BSG world. (Yeah, I might be nuts. Did that even make sense?)

I just feel sort of blase about both of them. Dee was a very cool, take-no-bullshit character back in season one/early season 2. The writers turned her into a long-suffering simpering woman who would settle for second best. That kind of stunk. Sam was kind of awesome and charismatic when first introduced and somehow got less so (I thought) once they were back on Galactica because all he ever got to do was react to Kara's business.

I know one person who hates Dee with the passion of a thousand burning sons and one who hates Anders quite strongly for being a macho asshole (which I've never seen in him--he's quite a pushover for Kara IMO). That's the beauty of interpretation I guess. It's all YMMV.

As to Nicole's point above, so true. The Kara-hatred (JB fangirling) on Sciffy has gotten too much for me. I don't check in there anymore.

working theory 101: why continue to bash Sam if he really doesn't threaten the twu wuv 4evah?

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