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My Teal Deer Thoughts, let me show you them (Kara/Anders, spoilers through Revelations)
So, this is comprised of posts I made at Skiffy tonight, and poor Lionel has no idea he's made me Think. (I might have scared him off, after this). Anyway, as such, his thoughts that got me blabbering are in italics (some of 'em quote earlier posts from other people, including me).
Have some Kara/Anders Wackiness.
from lionel2343
I highly doubt she would have kept calling him up for sex if he sucked at it
No doubt. She got some and gave him her dog tags. Then she lead a rescue party and got him off Caprica, and got some more. And then some more. And then more again......you get the picture. She fracked Lee, and then went off and married Sam. That's got to say something. :)
I've always thought it did. From the beginning, I figured they loved each other and both saw New Caprica as a fresh start. Sure, Kara's fresh start included just-frakking Lee, and Sam's had a hangover, and Kara smelling like sex, but...
There's lots of differing opinion on the year we never saw. 1. theory is that Kara slept around on Sam (a lot, and that he knew about it and accepted it as The Way Kara Was/Is), 2. another is that she only did it a little (and again, Sam just accepts it for what she can give--ie, she loves him, but fidelity isn't her bag, baby), 3. another is that she didn't at all. KS herself has said she and MT decided 3 was the truth, because Kara loved Sam and sleeping around on him, in this brand new shiny fresh start didn't make sense.
I waver between all three, depending on what I'm in the mood to write or how much canon has skewered things sideways from my normal read.
1. Kara is damaged, and seeking sexual release is a way of establishing that people love/care for her, even if she's got Sam right there.
2. Kara's an adrenaline junkie, and what could be more dangerous than sleeping with some person not your husband? This theory also matches the way I see Kara's 'affair' with Lee. Kara's responses to him during Eye of Jupiter sound just like that businessman who has a mistress on the side, and how he's always promising to 'leave his wife', but never quite succeeds in doing so.
3. Is sappy, but matches the idea that Kara saw Sam as a chance for complete happiness without any baggage from the past intruding. And then Leoben showed up and shattered her bright, shiny future.
I do think Kara bought into that idea of there being a bright, shiny future. And I also think that she sometimes thinks it's her own fault that it didn't happen.
from lionel2343
Yes. I will just add that Sackhoff/Trucco have put in some great performances. As I said before, Faith is a fantastic episode. And while I might have some gripes with the writing now and then, one fact undoubtedly remains: there is a reason that the writers have their jobs and I do not.
Faith, Road Less Traveled, and Hub are fairly decent episodes, yes. The constant killing off of the female characters gets a little annoying, but I suppose since the plots were 80% women, that follows (that is sort of sarcasm, though).
from lionel2343
Actually Ms. Sackhoff didn't say the quote (no need to repeat) without purpose. The purpose of saying what she said is to stir the pot a bit. Plain and simple. There is nine months to go until the show re airs. Interest has to be maintained somehow, and its the actors job to do that since they are the ones who we interface with. What she did was to say something controversial about everyone, and when that is done there is bound to be discussion. Her quote did exactly as intended, hence my [i]they must be rolling on the floor[/i] comment. And if a few bashes here and there result in increased ratings, both KS and MT are more than willing to take the lumps.
The problem is that the last time KS actually perused these forums, they were all about how Starbuck was awful and should go away. MT didn't actually think he had any fans.
Although, in all honestly, I don't think you can ascribe any motive to either. They're simply answering as they feel at the time. It's not like the Stargate people (the ones in charge), who deliberately say stuff to annoy the fans (Mallozzi calling them all sheep was classic, I'm sure). It's possible someone has sat the entire BSG cast down and said, "Look, fandom is batfrak insane. Be prepared. And play with them, 'cause it's fun!" but, uh, I kinda doubt it.
from lionel2343
Ah, the good 'ol days before Sam = Cylon (or not???)
God. I remember those days. Samantha Marie and I would have long conversations about, OMG NO HE WASN'T (my stance) and Duh, He So Is (hers). *sad* I miss that girl. She was always good at adding to things.
from lionel2343
Anyways, they certainly did not see the Sam/Kara relationship like Sam was being "weak" or anything. Perhaps a bit gratuitous in the many frack scenes (shhhhhh). Perhaps characters, behavior and such are perceived differently by viewers when shows are watched back to back rather than waiting a week between episodes?
Marathoning can change perception--so can just listening to the audio tracks over and over (as I did for seasons one and two. I think that may be where my hatred for Cain came from). Seeing it all smushed together, rather than stretched-out over weeks is useful. Farscape season four is like that. If you watch it in fits and starts, it doesn't make so much sense. Watching it all over a single weekend? YOUR BRAIN WILL BE LIKE SWISS CHEESE, but it will be the most brilliant thing you've ever seen.
from lionel2343
everybody has their points of honesty and times at being cruel and a liar.
Indeed. And what you say is true. Sam didn't tell her, though I think he always wanted to.
Now, for Ellen. Ellen is, in some ways, one of those points that always just makes me laugh. I can't help it. You see, Sam Anders is a terrorist. I hate to burst a lot of bubbles, but his whole campaign against the Cylons on Caprica was about terrorizing them so they'd leave. It wasn't some noble crusade (ok, it partially was). Similarly, New Caprica was suicide bombers and killing unattended skinjobs (at least until they started getting their own protection details). It was guerilla warfare, and it wasn't nice.
Ellen gave up their position to the enemy, directly resulting in the deaths of Sam's people and the near-death of their one liaison with Adama. On top of that, if Adama doesn't show up, Sam loses the chance he might have to look for Kara (because you can damn well bet he's been trying and Tigh and Roslin have shot down every half-arsed plan he's had from the beginning). Heck, Sam plans it so he's the one in charge of storming the detention center.
Oh--Ellen. Right. Sorry. Anyway. He's angry, and when he's angry, Sam makes split-second decisions and acts. He doesn't just sit back and think. (giving the dog tags back was an act of split-second anger, I think, though he certainly had reasons to do so) Ordering Ellen's death would have felt like just another suicide bomber. In some way, Ellen would be dying for their cause.
It was still murder.
And, despite what Chevy thinks, if Kara had turned out to be the collaborator, Sam might have pulled the trigger himself. He would have regretted it and hated himself for the rest of his life, but at that moment, he was so angry and upset, he might have done it (and anyone else? Yeah. Toast).
from lionel2343
That being said, I think that Lee and Sam have come to understand each other concerning Kara. Sam is very empathetic towards Lee and Lee's feeling for Kara and respects them.
My irritation that the men can make up, but the women speak to each other nevermore, let me show you it.
from lionel2343
If Lee is excluded, then that leaves the two Cylons to vie for Kara. In the interest of story telling, I think that there will be some conflict in one way or another between Sam and Leoben over the female Kara. I think we saw a glimpse of the coming conflict in Faith when both Sam and Leoben were tending towards Kara's injuries.
Which is all well and good, but Kara is not a prize to be won.
from lionel2343
Um, I said that Sam was not exactly being forthright. I did not say that he was being devious, or malicious in nature. Yes, he is in love. And yes, lovers can keep things away from each other. But that does not make it right.
No, it doesn't. It doesn't make Kara constantly pushing him away right, either.
I might love the both of them, but they seriously need some smacking (although, as I always say, it could so be worse. Sam could take over a small country and get Kara to assassinate someone for him, then do some more convoluted stuff JUST to get her back... but Kara and Sam aren't at Domino/Nate levels of dysfunctionally functional yet. *sniffles* Though they're getting there).
And in all honesty, I think Kara was using Sam to work out her frustrations, and Sam was using her as touchstone for being human. And sex. They were using each other for sex (it's almost romantic).
I didn't grab the quote, but you (or Chevy) were mentioning Sam seeming to be 'weak' at that time. And I have to disagree. Weak would have been letting her push him around and walking away. Weak would not have meant staying there and throwing their marriage in her face (after SHE was the one who brought it up). Not to mention--Sam has always had an almost sideways way of dealing with Kara. She throws angry words at him, and he doesn't counter them, he just side-steps them. Especially in this instance, where she's so obviously frustrated about her Destiny and Finding Earth.
And when she wants sex, at this point, everyone forgets that Sam hasn't touched his wife for more than a brief hug since before she died. Weak or not, she is right there and she wants him, even if it's for nothing but the physical. (and how like before that is, when she was only calling him for sex, and trying to avoid feeling anything, except those times she talked about her mama and Leoben...I tell you, after-sex conversations must have been really freaky for Sam, early on. Now he just takes it in stride that she's going to unearth some deep dark secret about her tortured past)
Even were he human, at that point, Sam would fold. But he's also a Sekrit Cylon, and confused and needing something to ground him. And there's Kara, the human woman who saved his life, who came back for him, married him and turned his life upside-down with a crazy fairy-tale about an arrow that would lead her to Earth....
from lionel2343
But I don't understand why a character (Lee, Leoben, Helo, Gaeta ect.....) has to be "torn down" to make an argument that Sam and Kara are hot for each other, and that through all the problems that Sam and Kara are going to go through that they will somehow remain together.
They don't. But if we're going to mince canon, Chevy, dear, I should like to point out that every time Lee's put Kara's life on the line was in a combat situation. [i]Just like Sam ordering Ellen's death.[/i] You can't use the same logic for one and not the other.
Of course, Sam doesn't want to marry Ellen. I don't think. Saul might object to that. A lot. (the scary thing is, Saul and Sam and Ellen and Kara have a lot in common, and one day I will so write the fic where they all realize it and outlaw drinking together ever again)
In Eye of Rapture, Sam was right about the tactics: Lee's sucked. Lee's tactics are very by the book. It's always been Kara (and Sam) who think out of the box. Lee makes good intuitive leaps, though (diving through the mine shaft in Hand of God). But as a planner, he's less than stellar. But. Sam's tactics are NOT always going to work. It's the combination of the two that keeps them alive long enough for the Cylons to go away and them to escape the planet.
For those who are wondering, as a complete aside, YES, my marine sergeant girlfriend would have shot Sam Anders if Lee had given the order. Because that's what she's good at: following orders. She's also good at planning strategy (hence Athena deferring to her in Exodus)
from lionel2343
In my opinion I find pics such as
are often more hot than
Since the first pic shows Kara and Sam simply having a good time with each other. The writing has shown that Kara can frack anybody. Bluntly, she has fracked anybody. But have we seen her enjoy the companionship of any other male character? Has there been any playfulness between Kara and any other male character? Is she curious about any other male companion? Have we Kara simply just like to "hang out" and have a good time with any other male companion? Have we seen all those things together between KS+?,would say no, not with Lee and certainly not with Leoben. I think it has been shown that Kara likes to hang out with Sam, play with Sam, is intrigued with Sam, and of course she likes to frack Sam. Put all those things together I think that one can make a pretty solid case for why the characters should stay together through the rough times that are coming up. That argument is being made in a positive manner not a negative manner.
Oh, hell. I was going to ramble on about the long view, wasn't I.
I'll be the first to complain that we don't get enough Kara and Sam kissing scenes (DECENT LIGHTING, RON. IS IT TOO MUCH TO ASK??) But I'll totally also complain that we don't get enough of them just talking.
We know, from Maeltrom and Taking a Break, that they DO talk. I would love to see more, but I suspect that's not the sort of thing that resonates with the writers or something.
Heck, I remember back when I first realized Kara really HAD said "I can't believe I married a moron" how gleeful I was that the show would go on, with their marriage as sort of background static, but not being something that would define their lives or the plot! And how wrong I was. Instead of being subtle and a good working relationship, it was dragged down into soap opera farce.
But even with all of that, I've always thought that Kara and Sam loved each other deeply and relied on the other being there. I don't remember if I first called it before or after Eye of Jupiter, but I actually assumed they'd be back together by Maelstrom (if only because of one spoiler I'd heard about detailing them having a conversation). Relationships take work. Good relationships take work and understanding, and sometimes, not being around each other is better for the long run (see: John Crichton and Aeryn Sun circa season 3/4 of Farscape)
Yes. I did just compare Sam and Kara to John and Aeryn. I always have (though they were a bit D'Argo and Chiana in there, too).
Epic love is epic. pls leave me my illusions, kthnx
So, contravening my own rule, I do think that if they don't end up dead, ascended, or dropped into the nearest sun, that Sam and Kara will end the series still married. And if not happily together at least working on things.
After all. She didn't shoot him between the eyes (not that I ever thought she would).
from lionel2343
bash Sam will do so anyway.
Sometimes it is better to take the high ground.
Yup. And sometimes? I'm really frelling TIRED of taking the high ground. I've been in fandom a bloody long time, and these sorts of bashing idiots never go away. They just change fandoms. Not to mention generally bashing female characters. (my disgust for the women who do this, perpetuating the stereotype that all women are catty bitches, let me show you it)
Have some Kara/Anders Wackiness.
from lionel2343
I highly doubt she would have kept calling him up for sex if he sucked at it
No doubt. She got some and gave him her dog tags. Then she lead a rescue party and got him off Caprica, and got some more. And then some more. And then more again......you get the picture. She fracked Lee, and then went off and married Sam. That's got to say something. :)
I've always thought it did. From the beginning, I figured they loved each other and both saw New Caprica as a fresh start. Sure, Kara's fresh start included just-frakking Lee, and Sam's had a hangover, and Kara smelling like sex, but...
There's lots of differing opinion on the year we never saw. 1. theory is that Kara slept around on Sam (a lot, and that he knew about it and accepted it as The Way Kara Was/Is), 2. another is that she only did it a little (and again, Sam just accepts it for what she can give--ie, she loves him, but fidelity isn't her bag, baby), 3. another is that she didn't at all. KS herself has said she and MT decided 3 was the truth, because Kara loved Sam and sleeping around on him, in this brand new shiny fresh start didn't make sense.
I waver between all three, depending on what I'm in the mood to write or how much canon has skewered things sideways from my normal read.
1. Kara is damaged, and seeking sexual release is a way of establishing that people love/care for her, even if she's got Sam right there.
2. Kara's an adrenaline junkie, and what could be more dangerous than sleeping with some person not your husband? This theory also matches the way I see Kara's 'affair' with Lee. Kara's responses to him during Eye of Jupiter sound just like that businessman who has a mistress on the side, and how he's always promising to 'leave his wife', but never quite succeeds in doing so.
3. Is sappy, but matches the idea that Kara saw Sam as a chance for complete happiness without any baggage from the past intruding. And then Leoben showed up and shattered her bright, shiny future.
I do think Kara bought into that idea of there being a bright, shiny future. And I also think that she sometimes thinks it's her own fault that it didn't happen.
from lionel2343
Yes. I will just add that Sackhoff/Trucco have put in some great performances. As I said before, Faith is a fantastic episode. And while I might have some gripes with the writing now and then, one fact undoubtedly remains: there is a reason that the writers have their jobs and I do not.
Faith, Road Less Traveled, and Hub are fairly decent episodes, yes. The constant killing off of the female characters gets a little annoying, but I suppose since the plots were 80% women, that follows (that is sort of sarcasm, though).
from lionel2343
Actually Ms. Sackhoff didn't say the quote (no need to repeat) without purpose. The purpose of saying what she said is to stir the pot a bit. Plain and simple. There is nine months to go until the show re airs. Interest has to be maintained somehow, and its the actors job to do that since they are the ones who we interface with. What she did was to say something controversial about everyone, and when that is done there is bound to be discussion. Her quote did exactly as intended, hence my [i]they must be rolling on the floor[/i] comment. And if a few bashes here and there result in increased ratings, both KS and MT are more than willing to take the lumps.
The problem is that the last time KS actually perused these forums, they were all about how Starbuck was awful and should go away. MT didn't actually think he had any fans.
Although, in all honestly, I don't think you can ascribe any motive to either. They're simply answering as they feel at the time. It's not like the Stargate people (the ones in charge), who deliberately say stuff to annoy the fans (Mallozzi calling them all sheep was classic, I'm sure). It's possible someone has sat the entire BSG cast down and said, "Look, fandom is batfrak insane. Be prepared. And play with them, 'cause it's fun!" but, uh, I kinda doubt it.
from lionel2343
Ah, the good 'ol days before Sam = Cylon (or not???)
God. I remember those days. Samantha Marie and I would have long conversations about, OMG NO HE WASN'T (my stance) and Duh, He So Is (hers). *sad* I miss that girl. She was always good at adding to things.
from lionel2343
Anyways, they certainly did not see the Sam/Kara relationship like Sam was being "weak" or anything. Perhaps a bit gratuitous in the many frack scenes (shhhhhh). Perhaps characters, behavior and such are perceived differently by viewers when shows are watched back to back rather than waiting a week between episodes?
Marathoning can change perception--so can just listening to the audio tracks over and over (as I did for seasons one and two. I think that may be where my hatred for Cain came from). Seeing it all smushed together, rather than stretched-out over weeks is useful. Farscape season four is like that. If you watch it in fits and starts, it doesn't make so much sense. Watching it all over a single weekend? YOUR BRAIN WILL BE LIKE SWISS CHEESE, but it will be the most brilliant thing you've ever seen.
from lionel2343
everybody has their points of honesty and times at being cruel and a liar.
Indeed. And what you say is true. Sam didn't tell her, though I think he always wanted to.
Now, for Ellen. Ellen is, in some ways, one of those points that always just makes me laugh. I can't help it. You see, Sam Anders is a terrorist. I hate to burst a lot of bubbles, but his whole campaign against the Cylons on Caprica was about terrorizing them so they'd leave. It wasn't some noble crusade (ok, it partially was). Similarly, New Caprica was suicide bombers and killing unattended skinjobs (at least until they started getting their own protection details). It was guerilla warfare, and it wasn't nice.
Ellen gave up their position to the enemy, directly resulting in the deaths of Sam's people and the near-death of their one liaison with Adama. On top of that, if Adama doesn't show up, Sam loses the chance he might have to look for Kara (because you can damn well bet he's been trying and Tigh and Roslin have shot down every half-arsed plan he's had from the beginning). Heck, Sam plans it so he's the one in charge of storming the detention center.
Oh--Ellen. Right. Sorry. Anyway. He's angry, and when he's angry, Sam makes split-second decisions and acts. He doesn't just sit back and think. (giving the dog tags back was an act of split-second anger, I think, though he certainly had reasons to do so) Ordering Ellen's death would have felt like just another suicide bomber. In some way, Ellen would be dying for their cause.
It was still murder.
And, despite what Chevy thinks, if Kara had turned out to be the collaborator, Sam might have pulled the trigger himself. He would have regretted it and hated himself for the rest of his life, but at that moment, he was so angry and upset, he might have done it (and anyone else? Yeah. Toast).
from lionel2343
That being said, I think that Lee and Sam have come to understand each other concerning Kara. Sam is very empathetic towards Lee and Lee's feeling for Kara and respects them.
My irritation that the men can make up, but the women speak to each other nevermore, let me show you it.
from lionel2343
If Lee is excluded, then that leaves the two Cylons to vie for Kara. In the interest of story telling, I think that there will be some conflict in one way or another between Sam and Leoben over the female Kara. I think we saw a glimpse of the coming conflict in Faith when both Sam and Leoben were tending towards Kara's injuries.
Which is all well and good, but Kara is not a prize to be won.
from lionel2343
Um, I said that Sam was not exactly being forthright. I did not say that he was being devious, or malicious in nature. Yes, he is in love. And yes, lovers can keep things away from each other. But that does not make it right.
No, it doesn't. It doesn't make Kara constantly pushing him away right, either.
I might love the both of them, but they seriously need some smacking (although, as I always say, it could so be worse. Sam could take over a small country and get Kara to assassinate someone for him, then do some more convoluted stuff JUST to get her back... but Kara and Sam aren't at Domino/Nate levels of dysfunctionally functional yet. *sniffles* Though they're getting there).
And in all honesty, I think Kara was using Sam to work out her frustrations, and Sam was using her as touchstone for being human. And sex. They were using each other for sex (it's almost romantic).
I didn't grab the quote, but you (or Chevy) were mentioning Sam seeming to be 'weak' at that time. And I have to disagree. Weak would have been letting her push him around and walking away. Weak would not have meant staying there and throwing their marriage in her face (after SHE was the one who brought it up). Not to mention--Sam has always had an almost sideways way of dealing with Kara. She throws angry words at him, and he doesn't counter them, he just side-steps them. Especially in this instance, where she's so obviously frustrated about her Destiny and Finding Earth.
And when she wants sex, at this point, everyone forgets that Sam hasn't touched his wife for more than a brief hug since before she died. Weak or not, she is right there and she wants him, even if it's for nothing but the physical. (and how like before that is, when she was only calling him for sex, and trying to avoid feeling anything, except those times she talked about her mama and Leoben...I tell you, after-sex conversations must have been really freaky for Sam, early on. Now he just takes it in stride that she's going to unearth some deep dark secret about her tortured past)
Even were he human, at that point, Sam would fold. But he's also a Sekrit Cylon, and confused and needing something to ground him. And there's Kara, the human woman who saved his life, who came back for him, married him and turned his life upside-down with a crazy fairy-tale about an arrow that would lead her to Earth....
from lionel2343
But I don't understand why a character (Lee, Leoben, Helo, Gaeta ect.....) has to be "torn down" to make an argument that Sam and Kara are hot for each other, and that through all the problems that Sam and Kara are going to go through that they will somehow remain together.
They don't. But if we're going to mince canon, Chevy, dear, I should like to point out that every time Lee's put Kara's life on the line was in a combat situation. [i]Just like Sam ordering Ellen's death.[/i] You can't use the same logic for one and not the other.
Of course, Sam doesn't want to marry Ellen. I don't think. Saul might object to that. A lot. (the scary thing is, Saul and Sam and Ellen and Kara have a lot in common, and one day I will so write the fic where they all realize it and outlaw drinking together ever again)
In Eye of Rapture, Sam was right about the tactics: Lee's sucked. Lee's tactics are very by the book. It's always been Kara (and Sam) who think out of the box. Lee makes good intuitive leaps, though (diving through the mine shaft in Hand of God). But as a planner, he's less than stellar. But. Sam's tactics are NOT always going to work. It's the combination of the two that keeps them alive long enough for the Cylons to go away and them to escape the planet.
For those who are wondering, as a complete aside, YES, my marine sergeant girlfriend would have shot Sam Anders if Lee had given the order. Because that's what she's good at: following orders. She's also good at planning strategy (hence Athena deferring to her in Exodus)
from lionel2343
In my opinion I find pics such as
are often more hot than
Since the first pic shows Kara and Sam simply having a good time with each other. The writing has shown that Kara can frack anybody. Bluntly, she has fracked anybody. But have we seen her enjoy the companionship of any other male character? Has there been any playfulness between Kara and any other male character? Is she curious about any other male companion? Have we Kara simply just like to "hang out" and have a good time with any other male companion? Have we seen all those things together between KS+?,
Oh, hell. I was going to ramble on about the long view, wasn't I.
I'll be the first to complain that we don't get enough Kara and Sam kissing scenes (DECENT LIGHTING, RON. IS IT TOO MUCH TO ASK??) But I'll totally also complain that we don't get enough of them just talking.
We know, from Maeltrom and Taking a Break, that they DO talk. I would love to see more, but I suspect that's not the sort of thing that resonates with the writers or something.
Heck, I remember back when I first realized Kara really HAD said "I can't believe I married a moron" how gleeful I was that the show would go on, with their marriage as sort of background static, but not being something that would define their lives or the plot! And how wrong I was. Instead of being subtle and a good working relationship, it was dragged down into soap opera farce.
But even with all of that, I've always thought that Kara and Sam loved each other deeply and relied on the other being there. I don't remember if I first called it before or after Eye of Jupiter, but I actually assumed they'd be back together by Maelstrom (if only because of one spoiler I'd heard about detailing them having a conversation). Relationships take work. Good relationships take work and understanding, and sometimes, not being around each other is better for the long run (see: John Crichton and Aeryn Sun circa season 3/4 of Farscape)
Yes. I did just compare Sam and Kara to John and Aeryn. I always have (though they were a bit D'Argo and Chiana in there, too).
So, contravening my own rule, I do think that if they don't end up dead, ascended, or dropped into the nearest sun, that Sam and Kara will end the series still married. And if not happily together at least working on things.
After all. She didn't shoot him between the eyes (not that I ever thought she would).
from lionel2343
bash Sam will do so anyway.
Sometimes it is better to take the high ground.
Yup. And sometimes? I'm really frelling TIRED of taking the high ground. I've been in fandom a bloody long time, and these sorts of bashing idiots never go away. They just change fandoms. Not to mention generally bashing female characters. (my disgust for the women who do this, perpetuating the stereotype that all women are catty bitches, let me show you it)
no subject
*G* Well. Energizer Bunny powers, and all.
Kara's an adrenaline junkie, and what could be more dangerous than sleeping with some person not your husband? This theory also matches the way I see Kara's 'affair' with Lee. Kara's responses to him during Eye of Jupiter sound just like that businessman who has a mistress on the side, and how he's always promising to 'leave his wife', but never quite succeeds in doing so.
Except she was upfront about not leaving Sam. :D But yeah.It also meshes with the extended version of Unfinished Business. "This is insane, you know?" "That's just the way I like it" sounds a lot like "I'm going to upset your tidy little apple-cart," "maybe I want it upset." So, from that angle, I can buy into Kara as an adrenaline junkie who, every once in a while, gets scared of the intimacy of marriage and sleeps around. The problem is that that doesn't really mesh with the Kara who was engaged to Zak and who we've still never seen sleep with anybody when it didn't have emotional significance. But I can see it if I squint. I think it cheapens her affair with Lee more than it does her relationship with Sam.
And, despite what Chevy thinks, if Kara had turned out to be the collaborator, Sam might have pulled the trigger himself. He would have regretted it and hated himself for the rest of his life, but at that moment, he was so angry and upset, he might have done it (and anyone else? Yeah. Toast).
I don't know. At the time I would have said yes, but then I also thought that if Sam weren't a Cylon, he would have been all for airlocking Kara when she came back from the dead, but after seeing this season, and how much he's centered around his love for her? I'm not so sure. (I think a lot of that may be that the writer's hadn't decided who Sam was, fully, until after Collabs when they knew they were keeping him. But it also works as actual character development.
I should like to point out that every time Lee's put Kara's life on the line was in a combat situation.
True. The only time it bothered me was in Razor, because the writing really didn't justify his decision, and Ron admitted that. But that's a problem with the plotting and not, I don't think, a message that Lee is angling to kill off Daddy's favorite son. ;)
Of course, Sam doesn't want to marry Ellen. I don't think. Saul might object to that. A lot. (the scary thing is, Saul and Sam and Ellen and Kara have a lot in common, and one day I will so write the fic where they all realize it and outlaw drinking together ever again)
I was just having a similar conversation with
*nods fervent agreement with the rest*
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My irritation that the men can make up, but the women speak to each other nevermore, let me show you it.
I agree completely, men do stick together. And as we can see, women rarely do, well except for the ML. Huh, sometimes I really miss that solidarity. lol
And, despite what Chevy thinks, if Kara had turned out to be the collaborator, Sam might have pulled the trigger himself. He would have regretted it and hated himself for the rest of his life, but at that moment, he was so angry and upset, he might have done it (and anyone else? Yeah. Toast).
I'll have to strongly disagree. He'd have never killed her. Terrorist or not. There's many horrors in war but a person has to have something he/she believes in or loves above all of it. Sam's belief was in the hope that his wife, whom he loves more than anything, was still alive. If one doesn't have that "something" then one becomes a machine...but wait, he IS a machine so maybe you're right. *huh*
I should like to point out that every time Lee's put Kara's life on the line was in a combat situation.
Point taken and yeah, you're right about that. I forgot about all the meta by the experts on LJ concerning "The Military Man". I know BM's supposedly written a great one I should check out. Perhaps it'll increase my understanding of how a person can be deeply in love with another and still be willing to cause their death thus losing them forever.
But really, Lee is a great guy that does love Kara after all and would've never put her in danger unless he was backed up against the wall. Soulmates. And I'll admit if he'd lost her during those times, he'd have been devastated yet able to go on because he has great strength of character. After all, he is our hero and is a really remarkable guy. I know now it was unfair of me to use the examples that I did. He's a trained warrior and does what he has to do. I guess I never let myself see what all of you guys do and I promise, I will keep the unfounded remarks to myself and only sing his praises from now on. :)
I didn't grab the quote, but you (or Chevy) were mentioning Sam seeming to be 'weak' at that time. And I have to disagree. Weak would have been letting her push him around and walking away.
Though I don't think I called Sam weak. o_O After being told by two noobs and a moron in the thread that Sam was considered weak, I was trying to say Sam's only weakness is Kara. And yes, I went too far with my point. It's just I get so tired of defending this man to everyone and sometimes I'm surprised by the people I have to defend him to.
I know Lionel's gonna love your Teal Deer Thoughts just as much as I do...probably more! lol
Great post, baby. :)
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I still can't get over people saying Sam is weak... for sleeping with his wife. 'cause. Really? REALLY? SHE IS HIS WIFE AND SHE'S BACK FROM THE DEAD....
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That is a conundrum for me as well. I don't know about the "sleeping with his wife part". You may have to take that up with the three new people but I, personally was defending him for taking her shit all the time and coming back for more. And like I said over and OVER, HE FUCKIN' LOVES HER.
I find Sam's frak scenes with Kara a lot of things...WEAK IS NOT ONE OF THEM...
I wish, people that come into the Kara/Sam thread to compare Lee's strengths to Sam's weaknesses would...(as you always say) GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY FANDOM! ;-)
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Sure, Kara's fresh start included just-frakking Lee, and Sam's had a hangover, and Kara smelling like sex, but...
I used to agree with the sex thing, but after the extended UB I don't think Sam knew. Kara slept all the night in the dirt after Lee, and then she had plenty of time to clean up before Sam woke up. And even if he did, I doubt he knew it was Lee. Considering how horrible Kara is to Lee in LDYB when she and Sam are making out, I doubt it crossed Sam's mind then that she even likes Lee all that much.
2. I think the "weak" thing is sourced almost entirely in Katee's comment, And eagerly grabbed up by the people who think the booty call stuff is an example of his being her doormat. But in S.4, I think he's just in a really tough place - he's joyful she's back, he wonders if she's a Cylon too, he has the weight of this secret hanging on him all the time, plus she's sort of crazy and he handles her as best he can, without alienating her. It's not weak to be feeling your way when your entire life has been pulled out from under you. Hell, he soldiers on better than the other Dylons, probably because he could relax about being outed on the Demetrius and he had Kara to worry about, instead of himself.
And yeah, talking would be nice, but we got a bit in Maelstrom, which was enough to show how it probably went. ANd you're so right about how Kara gets all confessional after sex -- had Sam been thinking, he might have known (I don't think he really thought it through this craftily), but sexin her up on the Demetrius, was a good way to find out WTF was going on with her. It was certainly a way to get her to break out of her compulsion for a little while, which I imagine was a conscious consideration.
3. hm, if Kara had been in Ellen's place on New Cap... That's a tough one. I have a hard time imagining Kara getting herself into that position in the first place. But if she did... He wouldn't stop her if she did it herself, and he'd let someone else do it. I'm not so sure he'd do it himself, though, especially if it had time to settle that she'd done it to protect HIM. It wouldn't be a purely tactical decision with Kara, as it was with Ellen. That's something I'd have to write out to see how it would play maybe. But if she lived, I don't think he'd ever forgive her for it, that's for sure.
(and I could comment all day on this, but I better not! *g*)
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I had seen the "weak" argument before, usually put like "OMG, Kara/Sam is an abusive relationship and everyone would see that if you flipped the genders. People who ship them have issues!" And the problem I have with it is invariably the people who make it are die-hard Kara/Lee shippers, so it's so obviously insincere. If they really think Kara is an abuser... well, if you flip the genders, are they saying that what an abusive husband really needs is a feistier wife? Because they all seem convinced that Lee will straighten Kara out, though I'm not sure how that's supposed to work. Either his true love will transform her (heh), or he'll "keep her in line" with lots of boxing matches, or something. But it seems really naive and inconsistent with the idea that Kara is some stereotypical abuser.
I mean, when I'm not being defensive I will totally admit that the sex scene on the Demetrius is not my favorite Kara/Sam moment. (Well, the whole Demetris arc really wasn't Kara at her best by any means, until they got to the baseship.) And I could respect their position if they were arguing that Kara shouldn't be with anyone, period. I would remind them that these are fictional characters, and honestly if any of these characters were my friends, I would tell them to get out of these frakked up relationships - and that absolutely includes Kara/Lee as two of the worst offenders. I didn't like it when everyone was screaming about how awful and abusive their relationship was and how anyone who shipped them must be sick after Unfinished Business, because again, fictional characters. But since this is coming from Kara/Lee shippers, it seems like just another attempt to make shipping preference a moral issue, which, no. (I mean, I don't see them going after Baltar/Caprica or Caprica/Tigh, and they both make Kara/Sam look perfectly loving and mutually respectful. (Poor Six!)
So yeah - I agree with everything you just said. Is his relationship with Kara always healthy for him? No, though it has kept him alive. So yeah, love makes you vulnerable sometimes, but it doesn't make you contemptible. Especially when you just found out you're a Cylon and your wife recently came back from the dead. ;) And yeah, Kara was pretty awful, but I agree with Ron [!] that that was one of her ugliest moments, period, and had a lot to do with not knowing who SHE was or why she was having these crazy compulsions. Context, people!
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I do think that if they don't end up dead, ascended, or dropped into the nearest sun, that Sam and Kara will end the series still married. And if not happily together at least working on things.
Finally somebody else who thinks Kara and Sam will still be married by the end of the series - unless deceased, transcended or otherwise oblivionated!
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Feel free to friend me, but be prepared for crazy insanity. Sometimes.