blah blah, cylon-cakes

[lyssie]

I live in a Tim Burton movie. Or at least, he's done the cinematography out there. Because it's been foggy and creepy-looking all damned day.

Went to get comics, discovered the store was closed due to their being a sale at another location. Bah.

So I bought a tiki fountain at Walgreens instead.

In other news, middle-aged white men protesting abortion in front of Shank Hall rather than the Women's Health Clinic? Until you actually grow a uterus and can carry children, you don't get to have a fucking opinion on the subject.

Comments

[dreagoddess.livejournal.com]

Until you actually grow a uterus and can carry children, you don't get to have a fucking opinion on the subject.

You know, I really, really, really, REALLY despise that argument. I have an opinion on a lot of things, some of which may or may not ever affect me. But as a member of American society -- as a member of human society -- I have a right to hold these opinions and advocate for my particular point. And are you going to go check every woman protesting and make sure that she's of child-bearing age and has no fertility issues before decreeing that SHE has the right to express an opinion? Sorry, but abortion is NOT only a woman's issue. Men can father children, they can be forced to pay for a child for 18 years or more while having absolutely no say in whether the child is brought into the world or not, and believe it or not, men can have an emotional attachment to their children. I find it absolutely horrifying that people will argue with a straight face that a man can't even have an opinion on whether his child will be born or not. Just because not all men want to be a part of the process doesn't mean that no man can or should. Obviously the woman in question has a pretty powerful and personal interest. You have to weigh that in, but that doesn't mean it trumps all other possible opinions.

We live in a society where we are expected to be active and participating members in our government. And that includes the right to express opinions on laws, and to take a moral stance where we believe one is appropriate. People stood against slavery who never owned a slave because they believed it was wrong to consider another person property. People have a right to stand against abortion if they believe that a fetus is a human child from the moment of conception. I may disagree with them. I may advocate against their point of view. I may certainly vote against them. But by God I am going to defend their right to say it with every fiber of my being, because that is a right we have fought and died for.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

When the only people protesting outside a WOMEN'S HEALTH CLINIC. You know, a place women can go for such minor things as pain medication for their fucking periods. Anyway, the ONLY PEOPLE there are middle-aged WHITE MEN who have not A MOTHERFUCKING THING to do with a woman carrying a baby to term, supporting her, or making sure that child has a decent education (with our education system, fucking NO), then, yeah. THEY can get the fuck out of my sight, because the only thing they're doing is making certain women continue to be treated as second-class citizens who don't know a god-damned thing about how the world works.

[dreagoddess.livejournal.com]

Right, those men have absolutely nothing to do with supporting a woman who might carry a child. I'm sure absolutely none of them have wives or daughters. And none of them pay any taxes whatsoever that go to welfare programs, emergency medicine, child services...

Like it or not, we're an interconnected society. They have as much a right to an opinion and to express that opinion as you do. Our society is in FAR more danger from shutting down anyone from expressing an opinion you disagree with than from some middle-aged white men engaged in a peaceful protest.

[stargazercmc.livejournal.com]

I find it absolutely horrifying that people will argue with a straight face that a man can't even have an opinion on whether his child will be born or not.

I'm probably going to be sorry for jumping into this, because I KNOW this is a hot topic, but...

I would respectfully submit that you're confusing the right to choose to have an abortion with a father's right to be involved in a decision to terminate. These two ideas are NOT the same thing. The men outside that clinic are not protesting father's rights. They're protesting that women have the right to have an abortion as an option in the first place.

I agree with lyssie on this one. No man has the right to tell me what I can and can't do with my body. No man has the right to tell me that I shouldn't do something with my body based on their moral standards instead of what is inside the law of our nation. I WILL actively seek and accept an opinion from my husband, but even then, it's only because I choose to want his input. And for what it's worth, I do have fertility problems. I may be speaking out of turn, but I doubt lyssie would tell you I don't have the right to make the choice for myself just because my husband and I are having problems with conception.

[dreagoddess.livejournal.com]

On the fertility problems, I bring that up only because I think that it's the same issue -- why should a woman incapable of actually bearing a child have any say on abortion if men are not allowed any say because of the same reason?

And no, I'm not confusing the issues. I understand that there is a difference between the right to an abortion period and a father being involved, but Lyssie simply said that men are not allowed to have an opinion on abortion period because they can't bear children. I think that's wrong.

I'm just trying to get people to look at this from the other side, because you can never reach common ground if you can't even understand where the other side is coming from. If people believe that a fetus is a human life no different than you or me, then of course they're going say you can't kill one even if it's in your body. You don't tell people they can't oppose murder just because it's not someone they know being murdered. (From a moral standpoint, I'd be horrified at people who truly believe a fetus is a human life supporting abortion no matter how much I personally supported it.) From that standpoint, it's not a matter of "telling a woman what she can do with her body", it's a matter of protecting people with absolutely no way of protecting themselves.

And frankly? If it's nothing but a question of "you can't tell me what to do with MY body", then that's true whether you can have children or not.

[stargazercmc.livejournal.com]

You know, I've often wondered what would happen if we outlawed men from being able to have vasectomies. Even then, there's really no equivalent for men for what women go through when carrying a child.

What is it George Carlin says? That a lot of white conservative males have a big opinion on abortion, but they don't give a shit about what happens to the child after it's born? Something like that. Anyway, I do find it interesting that a lot of the same people who oppose the right to choose are also the same people clamoring to get rid of assistance programs for people who need to then raise those children.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head for why this annoys the hell out of me. If they were doing anything to help the women who are stuck with the pregnancy, I'd be less annoyed. But they'd have to be doing things like making sure the mothers have well-paying jobs, child support, etc, etc.

[acetal.livejournal.com]

Um. Is it okay for me to believe in a woman's right to have bodily autonomy while acknowledging that abortion is a horrible thing?

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Yep. Now, if we can just get mandatory vasectomies instituted...

[rabbit-the-wise.livejournal.com]

where's the petition????