I would love to hate some characters, so I could go around, bashing them. But my dislike only happens when someone truly annoys me or their fandom does. And even then, I generally don't see the point of bashing. That takes energy. Energy I could use to, say, write fic about the characters I do like.
Probably because she dumped him instead of the other way around. Just a guess. It's probably not humiliating enough if he doesn't go over the PA to proclaim his undying love to the equally-married, equally-unfaithful Starbuck, and publicly state that Dee is a *&^%, a )^%*&^, and an all-round bad person who kills puppies for kicks. And then the entire crew of Galactica throw algae at her and Adama says she's dead to him.
And I don't even LIKE Dee, but t he character bashing is ridiculous to the point where I find myself defending her. She's the injured party in that marriage, and the batshit crazy brand of shipper will never forgive her for it.
go over the PA to proclaim his undying love to the equally-married, equally-unfaithful Starbuck, and publicly state that Dee is a *&^%, a )^%*&^, and an all-round bad person who kills puppies for kicks. And then the entire crew of Galactica throw algae at her and Adama says she's dead to him.
Ha! Why yes, I do believe I've read that fic. Or twenty. *eye-roll*
Oh, I've tried to avoid reading th ose fics, but sometimes it's hard. I'm following a WIP by someone on my flist right now, someone I always thought was sane. It's a K/L story, but it started out full of promise, with a Dee who was resentful and bitter, but still a decent human being. It didn't stay that way. It's tremendously irritating, especially since in every respect except one, it's a very well-written story. But I can't possibly rec it, despite its many good qualities, because of the rampant character assassination.
I've tried as tactfully as possible to suggest that I think it would be a Really Good Idea if there's a plot twist in future where Dee, having been foreshadowed as the Big Bad, turns to the side of the light once matters are explained to her. It would certainly improve the story the story's weakest aspect, except with those readers who cheer on every bit of the stupid foreshadowing.
As for canon, I don't find Dee a very interesting character, or a very well-written one, but she was the person hurt the most by K/L's Starbuck's Creek shenanigans. For all Kara's (many) faults, she was at least separated from Sam before she started the tEoJ installment of her affair with Lee. It's implied in tEoJ and Rapture that Sam and Kara had an "arrangement" of some kind. It's definitely implied that whether or not they had discussed an open marriage, Sam knew going in that sexual fidelity was not part of the package.
Now, acceptance of your spouse sleeping around does not equal acceptance of your spouse being emotionally involved with someone else, so Sam still has grounds for complaint. But every indication in canon was that the Dualla/Adama marriage was supposed to be monogamous. He treated his wife like crap, he lied to her on many occasions, and he kept her around as his consolation prize because he knew Kara didn't have a good track record with legit relationships. So I'd say Lee is a heel and a rotten husband. And THAT seems to be the sticking point for the really really "dedicated" K/L shippers. They can only whitewash his rotten behaviour if Dee is evil, and therefore deserves to be treated badly.
I'm not actually against Lee being a rotten husband. It makes the character more complicated. But it doesn't fit into the Wuv, Twoo Wuv narrative of the hero and heroine overcoming adversity to live happily ever after with hundreds of fat babies. Actually, I don't think K/L could've ever fit into that narrative even from the get-go, and I say this as someone who was a K/L shipper for quite a while.
They're post-apocalyptic refugees from genocide, in a stressful job with a very high mortality rate, so the happily ever after is unlikely no matter how twoo their wuv. One of them's a high-functioning alcoholic with anger-management issues like whoa, and PTSD from her various episodes in captivity. She also used to be in love with his brother (for whose death she was kind of responsible). Oh, and as for the babies, she's explicitly opposed to them in canon, while he didn't seem too thrilled by the idea in the the Stupid Flashbacks of Doom.
And even if all the external stressors were magically fixed, they'd have a high conflict relationship anyway, because they're that kind of people. Drives me nuts, how people will be attracted to a ship for one reason (i.e. them being all crazy messed-up but with sexual chemistry) and then try their best to get rid of all those reasons. I mean, I admit that I indulge in picking-out-curtains fic and even sometimes in babyfic, usually with the most unlikely ships, but I don't expect to see it in canon. And wouldn't much want to (because it would be boring).
To sum up (can you tell it's a SLOW day at the office?), K/L batshit insane shippers are no worse than the BIS's of other pairings and other fandoms. But at ht e moment they're irritating me to no end, in part because of the obsession with turning Dee into the villain of the piece. I don't see the same level of vitriol directed at Sam, even by the BIS's, and even though he's just as much of an obstacle as Dee.
*laughs* We need icons. Or something. Maybe just the acronym and "we could explain, but then we'd have to kill you" (which is my favoritest thing EVER)
We really, really do. If I ever figure out how to make icons, we will. Maybe using that clip where Sam and Dee are together in UB, looking ready to slap a bitch. ;)
How'd I miss out on this thread? Oh, I guess all that Holiday stuff.
I would totally make us some Icons. The desire for some Icons is almsot enough to get me incented to start up my desk top so that I can use the software on it to make them. Even though I make terrible Icons. lol
Actually, no. Encountered someone claiming Dee is stupid, and. Dude. wtf. (I encountered it in someone's lj, and figured starting a flamewar would be impolite)
HEY. if it had been, like, you or Kate, or half a dozen others, I would have been all over being a bitch like white on rice. (or, y'know, if it hadn't been in the midst of feedback for the fic that was there)I have standards, man. They're not very high, but they are there.
Just repeat to yourself "they're so threatened by canon they have to be stupid and annoying..."
Because, seriously. That's about the only reason the hate makes sense. Because they're grasping at threads that aren't there for their pov/pairing/whatever.
Y'know, they is just stupid. Why? Cos Dee broke up her marriage with class and didn't fall into a sreaming crazy nutjob, like his old girlfriend. They have serious issues Ignore 'em. Works for my kind of crazy. For the happy crazy cat. take some tinfoil ( baking foil, roll into a loose ball and let them play with it.. Drove my Susie into a active ball of fur. Miss her. Smack the upset person about the head with a wet fish.
Fandom character hate is like a pig-pile. When it's allowed to fester, as it is on Skiffy, it becomes like a feeding frenzy with hate feeding off of more hate. It's worn in some quarters like the Red Badge of Courage.
And Dee and Cally are definetly the two prime victims. Which is very interesting since they are both such small, unassuming women.
Helo is also a victim, which is an aberration given that he's both male and not even remotely standing in the way of K/L twu wuv. (My theory is that he threatens some Apollo fans with his manly goodness... which is the same reason that Sam still gets a lot of hate spewed his way. Manly Goodness.)
Helo is, yes. And I think you may be right on some of the reasons why. I think it's also because he's Kara's friend, and for some reason, women can't have male friends. Or something like that.
As for the other, it makes me so angry and... and a word I'm blanking on, now. Discouraged, maybe. Because we get all of these multi-faceted female characters, and instead of fandom embracing and loving them all, they pick, choose, and are catty catty bitches. Y'know, the kind they claim shouldn't exist in popular media.
I've been in fandoms with bashed characters before, so I have to ask: has anyone written this one as a rapist, based on nothing except extreme dislike?
The kind of bashing that annoyed my dear editor most, back in the day, was people who were dead set on an OTP despite hating one of the two characters involved.
But this is neither, it's that thing I've heard about often but not really seen in my own fandoms: a female character who's an obstacle to someone's OTP. And even there, I'm kind of used to that character being the canonical het love interest in the way of a slash pairing. So this is kind of new to me.
I don't actually have anything useful to say, but reading this discussion has been interesting.
Ye gods... I'm not sure anyone's written Dee as a rapist, per se. But she's certainly tricked him into marrying her and stalked him, iirc. And yes, the basis is mostly, "omg, I don't like her" for the hatred and character-assassination.
people who were dead set on an OTP despite hating one of the two characters involved
Oh, you've met the Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill yahoo mailing list where they only love Sam if she conforms to a certain romance-novel-stereotype, have you?
The sad thing is that there is a huge amount of that going around, in many fandoms--I was reading author notes on an Elizabeth Swann fic, where the author admitted she only likes Lizzie Swann when she can warp her character in fic.
It mostly (lecture mode: on) harkens back to the simple fact that female characters are held to different standards than male ones.
And to apologize for my bingo square, have some tequila rose.
She tricked Lee into marrying her? What, she shot him with a water pistol and when he chased her, she led him into a demon trap wedding ceremony? Or maybe just "Look over there!" *thwock* "Hey, he's coming around! Feeling better, hubby?"
The only time I've seen the rapist tag applied to a female character was with Buffy's attempt to give Spike a blow job in "Gone", which is a possible interpretation of canon, I guess, but then why is she griping and sulking all the way home? I always assumed he threw her out before, not after.
My first fandom was Blake's 7. A lot of the old print-zine fic was about how Avon, the antihero, was really the decent guy, and the guys who claimed to be well-intentioned really were rapists and domestic abusers. It's a dark enough universe that there are ways to make it sort of plausible. Some of the better writers in the fandom went that route, and there were some good stories along those lines, but I had had enough of it years before encountering the human-AU-Riley-batters-Buffy stories. Which were not written by the better writers in the fandom, and which had no visible connection to anything in canon. The writers did occasionally say straight out, "This is a Riley (or Reily, or Riely) bashing fic." OK, thanks for letting me know.
Sam Carter + romance novel stereotype = unmixy things, based only on what I know from RPG I stalk. What on earth do they want?
Some of the logic on those boards just... leaves a lot to be desired. (Dee with pet demons would be, um, kind of awesome, actually. *ponders*) Anyway, as best as I've been able to figure it--Dee knew he loved Kara, but married him anyway (and she didn't really love him, she loves his dad and just wants to move up on the social ladder), thus destroying his ability to be with Kara. Somewhere in there, is something about how she tricked him (their logic is not our earth logic)
Ah! I'd heard about that one, though I was out of the fandom by then. And it totally gets reversed by canon not too much later on, iirc. (or however you want to put that). I think the rape tag is applied to women less simply because we don't, ah, tend to view forced sex on men as rape as much as we do with women. Although I've seen some non-con Kara and Kat vs Lee fic, iirc.
Oh, man. Dammit, people. Just leave Avon the amoral bastard that he is. That's why we LIKE him!
Bashing fic just... puzzles me. If you don't like the character, just don't write them. How hard is that? I guess it's that the canon is so threatening to them (this is my new favorite argument, sadly) that they have to rant and rave against it.
Insecure shippers are... sad. (she says, knowing full well she's occasionally one of them)
Sam Carter + romance novel stereotype = unmixy things
Thou speakest truth.
Tequila-based cream liquer that tastes of strawberries and cream. Well. Fake strawberries. It looks like medicine, but it's very tasty.
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But then again, some people need to pull their heads out of their asses and remember that their preferences aren't universal.
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or their fandom does. And even then, I generally don't see the point of bashing. That takes energy. Energy I could use to, say, write fic about the characters I do like.Argh. (luckily, the cat is being adorable)
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That goes for Cally Bashers too.
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Time for the Society to Bitchslap some Peeps.
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And I don't even LIKE Dee, but t he character bashing is ridiculous to the point where I find myself defending her. She's the injured party in that marriage, and the batshit crazy brand of shipper will never forgive her for it.
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Ha! Why yes, I do believe I've read that fic. Or twenty. *eye-roll*
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I've tried as tactfully as possible to suggest that I think it would be a Really Good Idea if there's a plot twist in future where Dee, having been foreshadowed as the Big Bad, turns to the side of the light once matters are explained to her. It would certainly improve the story the story's weakest aspect, except with those readers who cheer on every bit of the stupid foreshadowing.
As for canon, I don't find Dee a very interesting character, or a very well-written one, but she was the person hurt the most by K/L's Starbuck's Creek shenanigans. For all Kara's (many) faults, she was at least separated from Sam before she started the tEoJ installment of her affair with Lee. It's implied in tEoJ and Rapture that Sam and Kara had an "arrangement" of some kind. It's definitely implied that whether or not they had discussed an open marriage, Sam knew going in that sexual fidelity was not part of the package.
Now, acceptance of your spouse sleeping around does not equal acceptance of your spouse being emotionally involved with someone else, so Sam still has grounds for complaint. But every indication in canon was that the Dualla/Adama marriage was supposed to be monogamous. He treated his wife like crap, he lied to her on many occasions, and he kept her around as his consolation prize because he knew Kara didn't have a good track record with legit relationships. So I'd say Lee is a heel and a rotten husband. And THAT seems to be the sticking point for the really really "dedicated" K/L shippers. They can only whitewash his rotten behaviour if Dee is evil, and therefore deserves to be treated badly.
I'm not actually against Lee being a rotten husband. It makes the character more complicated. But it doesn't fit into the Wuv, Twoo Wuv narrative of the hero and heroine overcoming adversity to live happily ever after with hundreds of fat babies. Actually, I don't think K/L could've ever fit into that narrative even from the get-go, and I say this as someone who was a K/L shipper for quite a while.
They're post-apocalyptic refugees from genocide, in a stressful job with a very high mortality rate, so the happily ever after is unlikely no matter how twoo their wuv. One of them's a high-functioning alcoholic with anger-management issues like whoa, and PTSD from her various episodes in captivity. She also used to be in love with his brother (for whose death she was kind of responsible). Oh, and as for the babies, she's explicitly opposed to them in canon, while he didn't seem too thrilled by the idea in the the Stupid Flashbacks of Doom.
And even if all the external stressors were magically fixed, they'd have a high conflict relationship anyway, because they're that kind of people. Drives me nuts, how people will be attracted to a ship for one reason (i.e. them being all crazy messed-up but with sexual chemistry) and then try their best to get rid of all those reasons. I mean, I admit that I indulge in picking-out-curtains fic and even sometimes in babyfic, usually with the most unlikely ships, but I don't expect to see it in canon. And wouldn't much want to (because it would be boring).
To sum up (can you tell it's a SLOW day at the office?), K/L batshit insane shippers are no worse than the BIS's of other pairings and other fandoms. But at ht e moment they're irritating me to no end, in part because of the obsession with turning Dee into the villain of the piece. I don't see the same level of vitriol directed at Sam, even by the BIS's, and even though he's just as much of an obstacle as Dee.
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I would totally make us some Icons. The desire for some Icons is almsot enough to get me incented to start up my desk top so that I can use the software on it to make them. Even though I make terrible Icons. lol
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Because, seriously. That's about the only reason the hate makes sense. Because they're grasping at threads that aren't there for their pov/pairing/whatever.
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And I normally ignore the Dee-bashing, but I have a saturation level, where I want to beat them with a chainsaw.
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And Dee and Cally are definetly the two prime victims. Which is very interesting since they are both such small, unassuming women.
Helo is also a victim, which is an aberration given that he's both male and not even remotely standing in the way of K/L twu wuv. (My theory is that he threatens some Apollo fans with his manly goodness... which is the same reason that Sam still gets a lot of hate spewed his way. Manly Goodness.)
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As for the other, it makes me so angry and... and a word I'm blanking on, now. Discouraged, maybe. Because we get all of these multi-faceted female characters, and instead of fandom embracing and loving them all, they pick, choose, and are catty catty bitches. Y'know, the kind they claim shouldn't exist in popular media.
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The kind of bashing that annoyed my dear editor most, back in the day, was people who were dead set on an OTP despite hating one of the two characters involved.
But this is neither, it's that thing I've heard about often but not really seen in my own fandoms: a female character who's an obstacle to someone's OTP. And even there, I'm kind of used to that character being the canonical het love interest in the way of a slash pairing. So this is kind of new to me.
I don't actually have anything useful to say, but reading this discussion has been interesting.
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people who were dead set on an OTP despite hating one of the two characters involved
Oh, you've met the Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill yahoo mailing list where they only love Sam if she conforms to a certain romance-novel-stereotype, have you?
The sad thing is that there is a huge amount of that going around, in many fandoms--I was reading author notes on an Elizabeth Swann fic, where the author admitted she only likes Lizzie Swann when she can warp her character in fic.
It mostly (lecture mode: on) harkens back to the simple fact that female characters are held to different standards than male ones.
And to apologize for my bingo square, have some tequila rose.
The manyhued rainbow of character bashing
demon trapwedding ceremony? Or maybe just "Look over there!" *thwock* "Hey, he's coming around! Feeling better, hubby?"The only time I've seen the rapist tag applied to a female character was with Buffy's attempt to give Spike a blow job in "Gone", which is a possible interpretation of canon, I guess, but then why is she griping and sulking all the way home? I always assumed he threw her out before, not after.
My first fandom was Blake's 7. A lot of the old print-zine fic was about how Avon, the antihero, was really the decent guy, and the guys who claimed to be well-intentioned really were rapists and domestic abusers. It's a dark enough universe that there are ways to make it sort of plausible. Some of the better writers in the fandom went that route, and there were some good stories along those lines, but I had had enough of it years before encountering the human-AU-Riley-batters-Buffy stories. Which were not written by the better writers in the fandom, and which had no visible connection to anything in canon. The writers did occasionally say straight out, "This is a Riley (or Reily, or Riely) bashing fic." OK, thanks for letting me know.
Sam Carter + romance novel stereotype = unmixy things, based only on what I know from RPG I stalk. What on earth do they want?
Tequila rose?
Re: The manyhued rainbow of character bashing
Ah! I'd heard about that one, though I was out of the fandom by then. And it totally gets reversed by canon not too much later on, iirc. (or however you want to put that). I think the rape tag is applied to women less simply because we don't, ah, tend to view forced sex on men as rape as much as we do with women. Although I've seen some non-con Kara and Kat vs Lee fic, iirc.
Oh, man. Dammit, people. Just leave Avon the amoral bastard that he is. That's why we LIKE him!
Bashing fic just... puzzles me. If you don't like the character, just don't write them. How hard is that? I guess it's that the canon is so threatening to them (this is my new favorite argument, sadly) that they have to rant and rave against it.
Insecure shippers are... sad. (she says, knowing full well she's occasionally one of them)
Sam Carter + romance novel stereotype = unmixy things
Thou speakest truth.
Tequila-based cream liquer that tastes of strawberries and cream. Well. Fake strawberries. It looks like medicine, but it's very tasty.