bsg meta: Dee vs Kara round 20000.2

[lyssie]

So, yes, I've been reading old meta, trying to remember what I've said before (for previous 'let me hit fandom with a bat' Dee [and Anders] commentary, see here--contains season three spoilers)

Anyway. Old meta. And something occurred to me. One of those epiphany type things. Actually, a couple of things did. Mostly, this won't contain spoilers for the end of season three, but, better to be on the safe side... (am starting with Kara, first, though it leads into my Dee thing, tangentially)

1. Kara strings Sam along. She tells him just enough of what he wants to hear that he doesn't just throw in the towel and walk completely away--Kara knows how much to push him, and when to shove him out the hatch. When to call him and when to frak him. She plays broken little girl well, knowing he'll want to stay, and try to 'fix' her (or be there for her), if he can. You cannot tell me that Kara didn't know exactly how to get Sam back after he gave her the dog tag. You also cannot tell me that they both don't understand they each manipulate each other.

Either Kara and Sam don't understand each other at all, and just luck into the way each pulls and tugs at the other, or Kara and Sam have a very good understanding of each other and use it to both their advantages.

Sigh. Oh, dysfunctional, manipulative OTP. (I'm waiting for Sam to take over a small country for her, you know)

2. Kara strings Lee along, too.

3. Dee only strings Billy along, while trying to figure out wtf is up with her and Lee, but Dee gets thirty thousand times more hate than Kara, who is doing the same exact thing. Only, Kara's married and Lee is married, and being a broken little girl is an excuse that only goes so far.

Out of all of them, Dee is the youngest. She's earnest, she's eager, she's from a fairly decent family, she's got a little angst. And she's in that stage where she thinks she knows She's Right. Billy is a nice kid, but Dee thinks she wants something different. She's not sure she wants to go for it, though. Also, and this is a big thing, the world just ended. People keep dying, left, right and center.

If the worlds hadn't ended, I have a lot of faith that Dee would have ended it with Billy before trying something with Lee.

This is, however, the end of the world. Honesty means she might end up alone, and she's selfish enough to want someone. Horrors. Dee is selfish. Someone crucify her now (oh, wait, fandom does that every time it talks about her).

Dee's stringing both boys along, because she's uncertain who's going to be alive the next morning.

Kara's doing it because she's a broken little girl *fake sob*. Yeah, next time someone's an asshole to me, I'm totally asking them if they were beaten as a child, 'cause that's such an awesome and legitimate excuse for treating people like shit. (why no, I don't like Kara's Childhood Trauma [trademark-Mercedes Lackey/Anne McCaffrey Wheel of Mary Sue-ness])

Comments

[aj.livejournal.com]

AGREEMENT.

Dude, I seriously don't get the Dee hate. Let me repeat that. I (Billy fangirl #1) don't get the Dee hate. I love Dee! She got a shitty end of the stick twelve ways from Sunday. She's also YOUNG. 19 year-olds are shit at relationships to begin with. Relationships born of OMG THEY ALL DIED clinging? Probably a damn sight crappier.

Just. FFFFT. Anyone who hates Dee because of 'what she did to Billy' can kiss my big fat ass and go away.

Re: Forgot my footnotte

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

I actually think they were giving Lee the out there. After he begged her to come back to him, if he'd left her for any reason, all but the most hard-core shippers would have cruxified him. I don't think anyone (except the hard-core Lee/Dee - or Lee/Not Kara - shippers) would have blamed Kara for Lee's decision. At least I hope not?

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

*loves you so*

[lizardbeth-j.livejournal.com]

me? I think Dee did end it. At least she thought she did. He asked her to marry him, she said no. She didn't send him a telegram, but hell, it's not like she said "I need time to think about it" either.

And yes, I have believed all along that Kara knows her two men far better than they know her (and Sam knows her better than Lee, but you know that). I don't think she does it with calculation (usually), so much as instinct, but she knows the push-pull very well.

[lizardbeth-j.livejournal.com]

oh, and I remain convinced that if Billy had died in 'Home' like was thought originally, none of this Dee hate would exist.

No, I take that back, because she would still be getting in the way of the OTP, but at least people wouldn't try to hang Martyr Billy around her neck as their excuse.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, it's really hard to tell whether Dee had already made her plans to see Lee before Billy asked her. Which. She was NOT expecting him to propose, and I think that threw her one hell of a lot. Sigh. God, this show needs to get better at putting scenes in that let relationship s evolve, rather than doing it as fait accomplis.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

It was something aj discovered, along with Billy being 23 or so. I don't remember where, though. I do find it works, in the end.

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

I guess the first thing I'd ask is, why does it have to be Dee vs. Kara to begin with? My idea of fandom is very different; I mostly just read TWoP, where at least in season two (back when there was still hope that Lee/Dee would be well-written *g*), there was pretty much an even split between people who went on and on about how much better Dee was for Lee - she's smaller, prettier, quieter, more respectful - and people who irrationally hated her for not being Kara and making eyes at Lee. Personally, I see very little point in comparing the two characters. They have so little in common. I'd actually say that Dee is the female version of Lee, and Sam is the male version of Kara. Which is a huge oversimplification, obviously, but. Stringing one person along even though you're in love with someone else is way more Lee than Kara, IMO. I don't think Kara has the emotional intelligence to play those kinds of mind-games. And we've never seen her being manipulative - she's always brutally honest to the point of cruelty, I'd say. She's very upfront about it when she's only interested in sex. I think that Sam keeps coming back for more because, well, he loves her and worries about her, and I think she keeps coming back to him because she loves him. Same with Lee, IMO, though it's a different kind of love.

Btw, really sorry if this sounds obnoxiously opinionated - I'm paranoid about that lately - it's just that the Dee vs. Kara wars are one of my fandom pet-peeves. :D If you ever look at the shipper threads over at Skiffy (not that I advise it! *g*), the Lee/Dee thread is basically the Kara is a h00r thread, while the Kara/Lee thread is all pictures of Dee's face pasted on to a dancing rat. *headdesk* Just because Lee needs to pick one, doesn't mean we have to, you know?

ITA that Dee doesn't deserve all the hate over Billy. A lot of people make the mistake of staying in a relationship longer than they should out of intertia, not wanting to hurt the person, whatever. And she didn't kill him my God folks. I do wish the writers hadn't been so tone-deaf as to not realize that having her break the heart of a beloved male character on the day he died, and then having her hook up with another beloved male character in the next episode would make her a fandom pariah, but... so much for that.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I'm running out the door, but one quick thing--I'm being mocking when I say Dee vs. Kara. I love them both.

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

*g* All the Kara-centric fic should have tipped me off. It was late? And I've also read waaay too many threads at Skiffy that basically go "Dee is a skank!" "Oh yeah, well Kara is a bigger skank!" For 30 pages. *eyeroll*

I do agree that Kara's done far worse than Dee in her time, obviously. I guess the reason I'm able to love her anyway is that I see her as selfish and pretty stupid when it comes to the yucky feeelings, but not calculating. If I saw her as painting her toe-nails and calculating how to make 'em bleed I probably would start to hate her. ;)

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

HAH. And there would be more Dee-centric fic, but I, ah. I find it less easy to write random stuff with Dee--possibly because I don't want -- sorry. wandered off in the middle of my thought to watch campy 60's tv. Anyway. I would write more Dee fic, but I love Kara and Sam more.

Damn. I need to scan the bits of Dee-awesomeness from the BSG comic, because. Dude. Greg Pak made me love her more.

[cujoy.livejournal.com]

Oh, am I glad you posted this. I have some very strong, and no doubt unpopular views on the Dee hate. Not just on Dee herself, but on the hate of Dee. I've been storing up my own rant about it. But you've probably said it right here much more nicely then I will when I finally do write that rant.

It is the ugliest part of fandom, when these pig piles of hatred get heaped upon characters as unassuming as Dee, and for not much. What is Dee's crime, really? You pegged it, she "selfishly" chose to be with one man instead of another. Oh! The horrors! Let's stone her. :(

And as to what exactly went into making Lee/Dee so flat and uninteresting... (And here's where I'm sure I'll have to duck incoming because I'm about to blame Jamie Bamber for something instead of Kandyse McClure...) But the truth is that JAMIE BAMBER along with the writers, directors and the musical cues of Bear McCreary are all much more to blame for sinking that ship then Kandyse McClure is. JB went out of his way to convey Lee's stiffness and his lack of love for Dee. Everyone sees the lack of chemistry and immediately blames Kandyse. Ahem. JB and KM are both trained actors, and JB in particular wasn't going for chemistry... he was going for anti-chemistry and achieved it.

I was reading some old posts over on TWOP from way back when Dee was with Billy, and everyone liked her just fine back then. So why the intensity of the hate other then that Dee became an obstacle to the holy Lee/Kara ship?

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I am, too. I'd been cranky for a while and posting smacky meta makes me happy.

My problem is that I've always liked Dee, and then fandom decided to hate her, and I started to like her more (I'm contrary like that). I mean, yes, I totally have a type (see Falacci on Law and Order: Criminal Intent, Aeryn Sun of Farscape, and Kara...), but I also have a fine appreciation for female characters in general, and awesome "I bitchslap you with my words" characters even more.

And Dee? Totally has that ability. And it is awesome.

And it's funny you should say it's JB who's at fault. Because, looking back, I can't think of a single moment where I ever doubted that Dee was attracted to/respected/loved Lee. It's always Lee I doubt. And I think a large part of that is a lack of character continuity on the part of the writers (BSG is bad for cc, in a lot of ways, honestly). But it's also because JB did play him so flatly.

I mean, seriously, Dee is always getting her hands all over him in season two, and she likes him (not to mention spending far more time with him, which makes me raise my eyebrows about the whole 'Dee getting in the way during Sacrifice' stuff, because, dude, Kara's mostly ignored Lee all season...)

Obviously, Dee is a masochist. But she's a hot masochist.