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Because I Care. Part... er, three, I think.
So, someone mentioned that the Sam/Jack list was being wanky, and I just had to go investigate. And lo, they are. The entitlement and self-righteous hatred of women is incredible. The spoilers for the end of season 10, and season four of Atlantis are UNCUT (or would be, if I weren't nice).
Jaka is agreed with. Often. Obviously, someone should destroy the S/J list and burn it and salt the earth and stuff.
There are 9,000+ words of outrage, derision and stupid behind this cut. Please watch out for random annoyances at producers/show writers/etc. For some reason, one chick has this ONE ARGUMENT. AND. Won'T SHUT UP ABOUT IT.
Also, if you replaced Sam with Kara and Jack with Lee, I imagine this is about how most K/L meta and lists go.
*Okay I hope this is far enough, as I've said before I often don't
give my spoiler spaces enough room. Okay, in the TV Guide article
about Stargate's last episode, it said something about how "finally"
Daniel and Vala get together. FINALLY?????? Vala's been on the
show for what? Two years? Don't get me wrong, I like Vala, I like
the idea of Daniel and Vala, but for cryin' out loud, Jack and Sam
have been trying to get together for TEN YEARS now!!!!!!!
Huffily,
=-=-=-
Yeah it torqued me too.
We get no respect!
-*-*-*-*
i thought 'finally' was funny too. finally tries for a
LOT more years that two. :p
*-*-*-*
yes, well, vala racked up more propositions and
innuendo in her 26 episodes than sam did in 10 years.
-*-*-*
***Actually, Vala managed to overtake Sam in that
aspect in the first 10 minutes of the first episode
she was on the show. Looking this way, Sam was always
particularly unforthcoming about her feelings for
Jack. Not to mention the fact that I hate DV cause I
hate Daniel, but like Vala...
I've become completely disillusioned with this show
because of the (lack of) proggress of the last 10
years, especially last 2 when JS could've gotten
together, and because of the latest spoilers (mainly
Sam going to Atlantis and dating someone there) and am
now giving up this fandom cause obviously nothing of
the positive nature is ever going to happen. I can
honestly say that this show was the biggest waste of
my emotional, financial and temporal investment of my
entire life. Watching the paint dry would've been more
productive and have a bigger output than this.
I'm starting to think that TPTB hate SJ shippers and
ship and are this way getting back at us for having to
follow RDA's directions on it... Cause I can't think
of any other reason why they would completely ignore 8
years of it once RDA left and do everything to avoid
acting on their promises, even though they finally
could've.
Have wasted a lot of time on stupid things in my life,
but this show is now in the first place and it breaks
my heart cause I honestly loved it and I honestly
loved JS ship.
(if you guessed this was Jaka, you get an A+++)
-*-*-*-
I love vala...when they can pry her away from daniel
and she's allowed to be more than his arm decoration
and a foil for his supposed 'heroness' and
'studliness'
vala in uninvited was pretty good. but put her around
daniel and she's just there to pump up daniel's ego
and make him appear the hero since he's 'got the girl'
(guess they forgot that mitchell is supposed to be the
star of the show)
I could have gone either way. I love the two of them
together...but so many times when the writers woudl
write it they'd do it so ott that it was painful to
watch.
but why is daniel/vala so wonderful while sam/jack is
evil????
cause coop adores all things vala and has seemingly
spent the past 2 years doing all he can to make daniel
the star of the show instead of mitchell and making
him 'get the girl' is just part of it
the hypocrisy is overwhelming. ship is evil incarnate
and not what the show is about...unless it's the
actors/characters/pairings that we're fond of, then
it's great
coop is a ......ahem, i don't think i can say it here.
but needless to say while the man may be a good writer
and director, he's crap for a show runner
-*-*-*-
Lyssie: No, no, honey, it's Joe M. calling all of you shrill lemmings. GET IT RIGHT.
*-*-*-*
(note, this reply was above the spoiler lines, thus, spoiling anyone who didn't KNOW about them)
Wait...did you say Sam will be dating someone? um....What?
Seriously?....cause that will be the last straw for me. I've never
gone out and bought season 9 and do not plan to purchase 10 either
because in my mind, the series ended at 8. I would have been fine
with the ambiguous fishing scene because even though it was pretty
vague...it was still fishing!
I don't understand what the big darn deal is to have them together?
Even the actors themselves are wishy-washy about it....remember
the "obviously he's no threat to O'Neill" comment RDA made about
Pete? And yet AT still laments on not wanting to be "Jack's girl" but
at the same time will giggle about fishing with Jack. Pick a side of
the fence and stay there!!!
I won't say that I've wasted my time with the show because I honestly
love it for what it is...(up until the end of 8) but if it does turn
out badly for the shippers then that will be the end of my support
for the show's franchise.
-*-*-*-
What? Sam dating someone else? Where did you see this?!
I have to say that I was looking forward to Sam in Atlantis, but if she's going
to be hooking up with someone other than Jack, this is quite a shocking
disappointment. In my mind they're sooo married!
What can TPTB be thinking????
-*-*-*-
While I don't watch Atlantis anymore, I'm going to COMPLETE ERASE THE SPOILER
FROM MY MIND. IT DOES NOT EXIST.
-- (an expert in reshaping the world into her vision...where Jack and Sam
have been together since the end of season 8)
-*-*-*-
***wish I could do the same. amnesia (or brain
washing) never looked so good before.
-*-*-*-
***That's what I heard. It may not be true (just
another rumor those rabid Danielites are trying to
spread) or it is true.
But with the way Sam's always been inconsistent about
her relationship with Jack and leaning towards
immediately taking "other options" (Orlin, Narim,
Martouf, Joe -married the guy in the first version and
agreed to a date in the second try, Pete - got
engaged,...) I wouldn't deny the chance that she
would, again, leave Jack behind and look for a newer,
less scarred model on Atlantis.
Okay, that was harsh of me, but I'm really pissed with
the way the show's been going and I can honestly say
that I haven't liked Sam, or the way she's become,
since Chimera, so I'm now always expecting the worst
of her.
But, on the other hand, if she's really supposed to
take command of Atlantis, then she would again be in
the same position with her lover that she was with
Jack, the regs preventing anything.
***The thing is, RDA was one of the PTB, while AT is
not.
While he was with the show and on TPTB, RDA's word and
wishes meant something, he could influence the show.
But since he's been gone, PTB's heads have been
inflated and they've been going crazy with glee over
not having him there anymore to hold the torch of SJ
ship (supposedly he himself has declared that he was a
shipper). And the results of TPTB's crazy glee over
having control of the show and with 'the old man' gone
are now plainly visible, in the decline of the
quality, many old fans leaving, many different shipper
and character fans groups pissed and feeling
betrayed,...
AT has never stayed on one side of the fence, she's
always been jumping from one side to the other, like
she either can't decide or is not a strong enough
personality to make a decision and stick with it.
AT has never been consistent in her interviews and
comments on SJ. Was gushing over RDA and how SJ are
good together in one interview, with bashing SJ and
not wanting Sam to be Jack's girl (which is completely
ridiculous) in the next.
Has also made a lot of really stupid and dumb comments
that have seriously sunk my opinion and respect for
her over the years (the suggestion that SJ should have
a night of sex and then move on from each other is
just one example). To the point that I'm ignoring and
not even remotely taking serious anything she says.
-*-*-*-
Sadly, I have to agree... I'm a huge AT fan and I think that's she's
just trying to be nice but seriously I'm so tired of the ambiguity.
Get them together or close that door forever. Don't feed us just
enough to keep us begging and then snatch it away.
It's ridiculous and demeaning to those who have loved the
characters. We didn't make up the relationship.... if they wanted to
keep it platonic, then they should have cut the hugging scene in Into
the Fire I think... and it never would have progressed this far.
I'm going to hold onto the hope that it's just a rumor until I see it
for myself because I really do love the pairing and want to see it
come to a happy shippy ending. :-)
(agreeing with Jaka. AUTOMATIC FAIL, BABY)
-*-*-*-
WTF??? You're kidding, right? Geesh! Has anyone sent Joe or any of
the other PTB a note asking about this? Not that they would probably
tell us, but man! String us along for ten years, give the audience
that wants it Daniel/Vala, but we're just supposed to suck it up and
not get a resolution. I agree, they must hate the shippers, 'cause
they give the Daniel folks whatever they want!
GRRRRR!!!!
-*-*-*-
***I love Vala, too. I think she's great, and I like the idea of
Daniel and Vala getting together, I think they're good together, but
when do the S/Jer's get their share of the time?
-*-*-*-
> I love vala...when they can pry her away from daniel
> and she's allowed to be more than his arm decoration
> and a foil for his supposed 'heroness' and
> 'studliness'
***I totally agree. I love her and, if they really
have to pair her off with someone, I'd rather it be
Cam.
And the way they are using her to inflate Jackson's
ego and image really bugs me, they are practically
raping her character. They took away her dignity with
the way they're treating her.
> vala in uninvited was pretty good. but put her
> around
> daniel and she's just there to pump up daniel's ego
> and make him appear the hero since he's 'got the
> girl'
> (guess they forgot that mitchell is supposed to be
> the
> star of the show)
***I totally agree. Never liked Jackson, always found
him too full of himself, too careless and callous,
disrespectful, annoying, rash, impulsive, dumb (high
IQ means shit when that person disobeys direct orders
and blows an ambush, almost getting his team killed),
egotistic, egomanical,...
As a fellow SJ fan has called him, he's "ego on legs".
> I could have gone either way. I love the two of them
> together...but so many times when the writers woudl
> write it they'd do it so ott that it was painful to
> watch.
***I know what you mean. 2001, 2010, Chimera,
Affinity, end of beneath the surface,.. those are just
some of the eps that come to mind.
> but why is daniel/vala so wonderful while sam/jack
> is
> evil????
***Because SJ was a promise made by the previous
leadership and because the "hip new demographics"
don't want to see a 42 year old and a 55 year old
getting it on, SJ have gotten too old to be attractive
anymore to the PTB.
They think the new demographics rather watch a newer,
younger crew.
It's always the same thing with every single longer
lasting show. And this elimination of the old crew
ALWAYS eventually destroys the show. Happened to the
X-Files (while I liked Monica and her open-minded
approach, Doggett just got on my nerves), to JAG
(didn't even last a season after the major change of
crew and didn't even last 2 months after them firing
the lead was made public),...
> cause coop adores all things vala and has seemingly
> spent the past 2 years doing all he can to make
> daniel
> the star of the show instead of mitchell and making
> him 'get the girl' is just part of it
***I never liked the concept of the hero "getting the
girl". That's always been too chauvinistic and sexist
to me.
If a couple get's together I want them to get together
because they honestly love each other, cherish,
respect and trust each other and are in love, not
because one of them is either settling for second best
without ever having tried to get the first best; or
because the guy is supposed to be some hero and he
then gets the girl as some kind of prize of war or
some shit like that, with the woman being displayed
like some brainless groupie. Always hated that
treatment of female characters.
DV have never been compatible to me, Daniel could
never "handle" (meaning not be overrun by her
personality or be able to tame her wild impulses) a
woman like Vala, he has problems leading his own life
and controlling himself as it is.
*--*-*-
> ***That's what I heard. It may not be true (just
> another rumor those rabid Danielites are trying to
> spread) or it is true.
>
i was gonna say. i personally would write that off as
s*** stirring by the OTT daniel fans until i hear it
from a credible source
-*-*-*-
> ***I love Vala, too. I think she's great, and I
> like the idea of
> Daniel and Vala getting together, I think they're
> good together, but
> when do the S/Jer's get their share of the time?
>
maybe in continuum. cause netu will freeze before coop
does any ship that ain't his oh so hallowed
daniel/vala.
heck, it's like he doesn't even want rda on the show.
they sign the man for 5 eps and he gets shunted off to
atlantis for 3 of them
*-*-*-*
> ***I never liked the concept of the hero "getting
> the
> girl". That's always been too chauvinistic and
> sexist
> to me.
>
look at the characters that coop writes. if it's a
woman, she's a cliche. heck, he couldn't even figure
out what to do with sam if jack wasn't around. if
she's not
maternal
boobs
hero's girlfriend
he doesn't know what to do with her
vala COULD have been really great. but coop couldn't
ever pry her away from daniel for long enough to have
her be anything but a cliche. which is a loss and a
waste of claudia's talents
(on that last, um... did this fucking idiot MISS ALL OF DOMINION????)
-*-*-*-
In reality, no CO (certainly not a Jack type who hated scientists in the first
place, no matter what he did once.) would have tolerated Daniel's crap and
insubordination - even if he was a civilian. He's lucky the only person his
rashness has ever gotten killed was him. (and the writers just *had* to bring
him back.) He'd have been relegated to a lab permanently long ago. The
writer's wanted to use him as a foil for Jack.
I too am sick of Daniel. Even my boys have commented "why can't he stay dead?"
I'm also no fan of Michael Shanks.
There's no way they would put Vala with Cam, as it would have to many people
comparing them to farscape-where the characters they played were together. (I
think I dislike Cam - he's not a good actor ((I'm also offended TPTB thought he
could replace RDA)) - even more than Daniel.)
I liked Vala better when she was doing a first rate job of needling Daniel.
They should have let the how die at the end of season 8, it would have been more
respectful to all characters, not just the S/J ship. I sooo miss RDA. Maybe
AT is so afraid of Sam being "Jack's girl", because she is such a "people
pleaser" she doesn't make her own convictions. After all, her pro-ship
comments are to pro-ship audiences, and the "don't want to be jack's girl", to
those who hate ship. Jack is actually one of only a very few males Sam has
had something with that actually treated her like an equal. (well, excepting
the difference in rank thing.) She would have been a 'partner', not an arm
decoration - eye candy.
--*-*-*-
I have been reading all the comments on this subject and I must say
this is most satisfying conversation I've read in a long time! I
totally agree with pretty much ALL the comments. I have thought for a
long time that the characters are not even "in character" anymore,
the show has turned into such a joke.
-*-*-*-
a 'partner', not an arm decoration - eye candy.
> >
i think, while amanda certainy enjoys working with
rick, i think she's all too aware of these writers'
weaknesses...ie the girl is nothing more than a
girlfriend...and when the guy leaves, dude why does
the girl have to even be around???
we saw a lot of this in s9. coop 'didn't know what to
do with sam' now that jack was gone. he simply
couldn't figure out what to do with a female character
if she wasnt' someone's girlfriend.
in the hands of writers and show runners like this,
i'm thinking that AT saw the vulnerablilty of her
character - and her job. and i think that's what she
means when she has issue with being 'jack's girl'
it's not being paired up with jack that's the issue,
it's the weaknesses of the writers and their inability
to give her a story that's not boyfriend based (which,
with all honesty, has been a very notable weakness
since brad left in s7. sam has been little more than
the sum of her relationships...and it's all been under
coop's 'leadership')
-*-*-*-
You have some really good points about Brad leaving. It's just, there were alot
of times when he was there where she was hooked up with some guy for no valid
reason.
they started the S/J stuff in the fourth episode of season 1. (and putting her
with other guys - whether welcome or not - before that.) I'm sure the writers
thought of it as a joke, and then it ran away from them. (or bit them)
but we know how poorly Sam was viewed by the writers from her very first scene
in Children of the Gods.
-*-*-*-
We'll, there is the fact that next to Jack, Daniel is the star, right? look
at the way the credits are done -- the implication of "with Michael Shanks"
is that he is special. Not to take anything away from Shanks as an actor I
think has remarkable comedic timing and also a good dramatic actor, but RDA
has proven his worth as a star, producer and an actor over the long haul. I
hesitate to say this, but. . . .I'm a Jack O'Neill fan, so I ain't afraid
Jack threatens Daniels position. Okay, I said it.
-*-*-*-
The past two years have really been hard on Sam's character. It's
almost like they were trying to sabotage her. I remember reading the
interview with AT on Gateworld where she said that she really missed
Daniel (both as AT and Sam)this last season. I'm not MS's biggest
fan, after meeting him at a con...but I really loved the interaction
between the two. Once Vala (who has actually grown on me) came onto
the scene it was like they couldn't get rid of Sam fast enough.
There was almost no interaction with them.
I've been watching the old shows leading up to the finale and while I
don't understand the choice of some of the episodes (Icon? Really?),
I've been having a wonderful time revisiting these characters. The
S/J dynamic was what drew me into the show before I really even
understood what i was watching. I'll forever miss Jack - he totally
made the show.
*-*-*-*
I think you meant to say you're not afraid Daniel threatens Jack's position,
right? I agree. I think it's true that with Jack gone, Daniel is the
star. But he can't fill Jack's shoes.
Which isn't to say that I don't like Daniel, because I do. It's
interesting, because if I were asked what made me a rabid fan of SG-1, I
would say it was the team dynamic. Though Jack is my favorite, I really
like all the (original) characters, and the way they interacted with each
other. I like Daniel a lot, too. However, with Jack gone, it's clearer
than ever that he was the lynchpin. He was the one that made the show truly
special. Because in Season 6, the absence of Daniel didn't cause the show
to lose it's "oomph." But the absence of Jack has done so. Yes, I'd have
to say that it is Jack's absence that's been the real killer, and not just
the annoying new characters or the annoying failure to make Sam team leader.
As for this rumor about Sam dating someone when she goes to Atlantis, I'm
certainly hoping that's false. Because if it isn't, I'd have to assume the
producers are tired of their jobs and are trying to kill the Stargate
franchise as quickly as possible. It's my attachment to the original SG-1
(Seasons 1 - 8) that sustains my interest in the franchise. If they do
something that is untrue to the spirit of the characters I fell in love with
(and Sam not ending up with Jack would certainly qualify), I will become
disgusted and lose all interest. And I think the same thing would happen to
a very large part of their audience -- as the people on this board have
already indicated. (And as, I guess, has already happened to part of the
audience. If they keep it up, they'll lose the rest.)
-*-*-*-
> You have some really good points about Brad leaving.
> It's just, there were alot of times when he was
> there where she was hooked up with some guy for no
> valid reason.
>
in episodic tv, a lot of that happens. regular deals
with an attraction from guest of the week. and since
sam is the only girl, she'd get 'hooked' up with every
single male guest star.
but under brad sam also had the tok'ra story line and
the jolinar storyline. she had some great development
adn potential.
but since s7 and very especially since s9....she's
just there to say the lines that are too tough for hte
boys to memorize :)
*-*-*-*
> In reality, no CO (certainly not a Jack type who
> hated scientists in the first place, no matter what
> he did once.) would have tolerated Daniel's crap
> and insubordination - even if he was a civilian.
> He's lucky the only person his rashness has ever
> gotten killed was him. (and the writers just *had*
> to bring him back.) He'd have been relegated to a
> lab permanently long ago. The writer's wanted to
> use him as a foil for Jack.
***Most definitely. No military man would take
Daniel's crap, definitely not for this long and
definitely not a man of Jack's type.
I too wish he would've died and stayed dead. This
resurrecting annoys me and is also disrespectful to
others who have died and stayed dead (not just Jacob
and Janet but every good person who died on SG),
because it's sending the message that THEY weren't
worthy of life, while some little shit like Daniel is
supposed to be oh so special. Even though he's
continually getting other people killed and making
such basic mistakes even a first year History student
and boot camp recruit wouldn't.
> I think I dislike Cam - he's not a good
> actor
***This is the only point where I disagree with you.
Had Ben not been an amazing actor (and he proved it
countless times over) he wouldn't have gotten so many
medals and awards for his acting (more than all former
SG1 crew, without Jack, put together) in the 4 years
of Farscape.
He's great with drama, tragedy and comedy. You would
just have to watch all those powerful sad or funny
Farscape eps.
> I liked Vala better when she was doing a first rate
> job of needling Daniel.
***Me too.
> They should have let the how die at the end of
> season 8, it would have been more respectful to all
> characters, not just the S/J ship.
***I agree.
> I sooo miss
> RDA.
***Me too.
> Maybe AT is so afraid of Sam being "Jack's
> girl", because she is such a "people pleaser" she
> doesn't make her own convictions.
***Which means that she herself doesn't have a strong
personality, isn't strong as a person, isn't secure in
herself and always has a compulsion to please others
and is not secure in who she is to be who she is.
> ship. Jack is actually one of only a very few
> males Sam has had something with that actually
> treated her like an equal. (well, excepting the
> difference in rank thing.) She would have been a
> 'partner', not an arm decoration - eye candy.
***Most definitely, considering that her ALL
boyfriends and fiancees were either weirdoes obssessed
with her, were traitors, were control freaks or
something else just as bad. She was right, she really
is attracted to the maniacs, except for Jack.
Jack was never a lunatic and would've been the only
one to treat her like an equal and consult her on all
decisions and not made her decisions without her
input.
But, which proves my point, she never did make an
effort to be with him, had she...
This is the core of my bone with Sam... She never made
an effort to be with Jack, she gave him and what they
had up without even a fight.
And, as a Jack fan, this is that something that I
can't forgive and why I started disliking her in the
last seasons, which was even compounded with the way
she handled her relationship with Shanahan when it
came to Jack (the scene in the elevator in Chimera was
completely rude and Jack deserved to find out about
her boy toy in a private setting at his home where he
would have the chance for no-one to see how it
affected him, where he could lick his wounds and where
he could have some power over the situation by sending
her home so he could process it and be hurting
privatly; then there is also the cruel way she thrust
that ring in his face and countless other occasions
where Jack was reminded of the fact that she's
marrying another guy, a guy who definitely wasn't
worthy of her. Or fully deserved her, considering how
she was acting. Hell, I don't know).
*/-*-/-
i love amanda/sam. can you guys take this into private
convos?
(oh, thank god. Someone... well, not sane.)
-=-=-=
> As for this rumor about Sam dating someone when she goes to Atlantis, I'm
> certainly hoping that's false.
It's a rumor. JM made a facetious remark on his blog about shipping Sam on
SGA. A llot of what he says has no merit (his idea of a joke) but not all fans
see it that way.
-=-=-=-
And I always thought that Sam showed Jack the ring to give him the
opportunity to stop her. When he didn't, that made her think that there was
no hope for a "them", and she said yes to Pete because she wanted a life.
But it was a difficult decision for her.
As for Amanda, she's always been good about not giving anything away at
conventions, and I think that a lot of the time she's cracking jokes, but
people are taking her seriously. Her references relate more to the writers
than to her own opinion. And she's an excellent, smart actress who takes
the material she's given and really sells it to the viewer, whether she
agrees with the characterization or not.
-*-*-*-*
>i love amanda/sam. can you guys take this into private
>convos?
Why? They *are* discussing Jack and Sam!
I, for one is interested in their POV.
Some things need to be said, and who can say that Sam has been all that
kindhearted in the way she treated Jack in the posts' mentionned moments...?
I like Sam very much as a character: she's, in many ways, a great role model
on TV.
I like Amanda as a person too: she's seems like a pleasant woman to get to
know and seems to have a great sense of humour. From the interactions
between her and RDA from that convention in England some people were kind
enough to relate on other lists (or even here, I don't remember) they seem
to have a very nice work relationship.
So, I don't think those posts violate the mendates of this list (I could be
wrong, and a mod will surely let us know).
I'm just saying!
-*-*-*-*
> And I always thought that Sam showed Jack the ring
> to give him the
> opportunity to stop her. When he didn't, that made
> her think that there was
> no hope for a "them", and she said yes to Pete
> because she wanted a life.
> But it was a difficult decision for her.
***Okay, let's take it from a man's (Jack's) POV:
1. when he found out about Shanahan she told him it
was "nothing serious". Which would mean, she threw
away their feelings (whatever they were) and 6 years
of friendship for meaningless sex. That's what
"nothing serious" means. THAT had to hurt, BADLY.
2. she's been dating another guy for 7 months (or
more) by then, thus proving to JAck that she had no
feelings for him (left).
3. she obviuosly cared enough for the bozo to go
against the prime directive and plead for the jerk to
be given clearance even though what he deserved was to
be regarded as a threat to national security and a
traitor for what he did, like every other person
would've been regarded. Yes, these are the charges
that would've been brought against him in RL, if he
wasn't eliminated outright. Remember that reporter in
"Secrets"? THAT's how Shanahan would've been dealth
with had TPTB not had bigger plans for him.
4. she cared enough for the bozo to take the ring and
not say NO immediately.
5. she was talking about having kids with the guy
seconds before showing the ring, which must've hurt
badly.
6. she hasn't shown ANY kind of romantic feelings for
Jack for years before then, in fact, her relationship
clearly showed him that she DIDN'T have ANY feelings
for him left, had they been there in the first place.
Had she really loved Jack and wanted to be with him,
she would've done something to be able to be with him
long ago, she was a (supposedly) extremely intelligent
woman and would've definitely found a way.
7. last, but definitely not least, there were still
the REGS. Yes, Jack was still her CO, she was still
his subordinate (even though she wasn't her 2IC
anymore), now it was even more forbidden since he had
the entire facility to command, unlike before when he
only had the team.
Add to that, that they were in front of a surveilance
camera, that was filming every move they made.
--------------------------------
So, look at it from Jack's POV: the woman who he loved
for years, who has given him a renewed hope for a life
after his son had died and after the divorce when he
gave in to dying alone, and has then thrown their
history away for meaningless sex and has been dating
that guy for months shows you the ring he gave her;
and she does it in a pretty callous and hurtful way.
She could've done it A LOT more sensitively.
Jack had to be immensely hurt and reeling from the
latest stab in his heart and probably didn't know
where up and where down was. The only thing on his
mind was to get the hell out of there to regroup, lick
his wounds, rebuild his walls, and pretend he wasn't
hurting; but mainly to get out of there.
He was hurt, confused, stunned, shocked and he
desperately wanted to get the hell out of there,...
and with him being in that condition you expect him to
be able to decrypt Sam's seriously encrypted, so
subtle that even a cryptologist wouldn't understand
it, question and give her the answer she wanted?
Are you serious?
I've been in a situation very similar, actually it was
almost identical, to Jack's before, where the girl I
had feelings for had been leading me on, making me
believe she had feelings for me, we've been making
steps into a serious relationship, until one day I
found out that she actually had a boyfriend and has
had even before she met me... And I've known that girl
for only 2 years by then and definitely wasn't as in
love with her as Jack was with Sam, but it HURT, it
hurt terribly, I felt betrayed (as Jack definitely
felt), and, not only that, but my defences kicked in
and demanded that I get the hell out of there before I
let on just how she hurt me, before I lost every last
bit of my pride and dignity I had left. And I did, as
Jack had, I retreated also, to protect myself, to
regroup,...
We ALL know that Jack is a pretty defensive person,
who guards his feelings and heart jealously to prevent
it from being hurt again, is also a proud person, and
his first, and strongest, instict would've been to
protect himself, to run away. Which is what he did.
And let me tell you from experience, Jack was not able
to be decrypting anything, least of all vague answers
from a woman who, not only was seriously considering
marrying and having kids with another man, but has
shown him during the last few years that not only did
she not feel the same anymore (since she had
repeatedly accepted advances from other men and then
got involved with Stalker-cop), but that his feelings
and them acting on those feelings were unappreciated
and unwanted.
Why then wouldn't she do anything after she'd forced
him to confess his love to her before an audience.
Imagine how humiliating and hard it had to be for Jack
to confess his love before an audience, only for her
to ask him to pretend as if he had not feelings for
her, to keep it in the room.
We never found out what Sam had said to Anise...
And in the "man-woman dictionary" Sam's request to
keep it in the room would be translated into: I don't
want you, I don't want these feelings and I don't want
to have a relationship with you.
Then that woman hooks up or attempts to (before they
either die - Joe, Orlin,... or have to leave - Barrett
and that Major Something) with every guest star on the
show that comes her way and finds herself a boytoy for
sex when she wants it, starts dating the boytoy and
lastly ponders on having kids with the boytoy...
Are you getting what I'm trying to say?
I'm sorry to say this, but I've seen many insinuations
like yours on the net during the last few years, which
leads me to ask: "Do the women that ask these
questions, that believe Jack understood her question
and should've fallen to his knees before her and
begged her not to marry the clown; do these women even
know that men DO have feelings, that we DO get hurt?"
Sadly, I'm starting to believe that some women
actually aren't even aware that men do have feelings
and don't take it into consideration when they say or
do something.
What I'm trying to say is: I know that since you're a
woman you'll always immediately defend the sisterhood
and all (which is understandable), but try to make an
exception once, try to take into consideration that
guys actually have feelings and can get hurt.
Women are not the only victims in relationships, no
matter how much they think they are, and especially
they are not always the only victims; men get hurt
too.
We just hide it better. We don't go crying, or call up
our friends and cry in their ears on the phone, curs
our (former) partner, bitch and curse her and rant
what a bitch she was, we don't burn her pictures and
her stuff, we don't throw all her stuff out on the
lawn, we don't stuff ourselves with chocolate or ice
cream, watch sappy romance movies, destroy for a
rainforest of hankies,...
When a man gets hurt he closes himself off, unless
he's a wuss or over-emotional he won't give away that
he's hurting (especially to the woman who hurt him),
he won't cry, he won't rage, he won't do the things a
woman does when a guy hurts her; a guy does one thing:
he closes himself off and doesn't permit any feelings
to show. And then what many men do is to get drunk and
drown their sorrow in alcohol. Others find some other
way to get over it.
But the thing they have in common is never showing
their feelings to others, especially to the woman who
hurt him.
And THAT is what Jack did in that scene and because of
those 8 reasons I gave he was unable to act on that
completely vague question.
Besides, wasn't his answer good enough?
I wouldn't be here...
He gave her the answer. Had things been different he
would've been home with their kids, waiting for her to
get home.
His answer was on the exact same wavelength as her
question, yet so many fans ignore the fact that he DID
answer...
Take care.
-*-*-*-
I too thought she showed the ring to Jack in hopes he'd give her a reason to say
no. I thought she only said yes because she was caught up in the adrenalin and
celebratory emotion (and *impulse*) of the moment when the op (proving Teal'c
innocent) was finished, and potatohead happened to be there. I thought her
reasons quite lame.
I would have enjoyed seeing a friendship between Jack and Kawalsky develop. It
would have felt more real, than Jack developing a friendship with someone who
lives in his head, and not the real world, but acts like it is the real world
and drags others into his versions. I wish Kawalsky would be
resurrected. (Of course, Jacob - that actually bothered me more than Janet.
Possibly because my own father died when I was 12)
At least we have some good ship writers, even if the show isn't giving ideas.
-*-*-*-
> 3. she obviuosly cared enough for the bozo to go
> against the prime directive and plead for the jerk
> to
> be given clearance even though what he deserved was
> to
> be regarded as a threat to national security and a
> traitor for what he did, like every other person
> would've been regarded. Yes, these are the charges
> that would've been brought against him in RL, if he
> wasn't eliminated outright. Remember that reporter
> in
> "Secrets"? THAT's how Shanahan would've been dealth
> with had TPTB not had bigger plans for him.
>
IIRC, there is no canon proof of WHO got pete his
clearance. It is just as likely tthat giving him
clearance was a way to gag him.
as soon as he was told, and sam quoted chapter and
verse, he was no longer an outsider looking in and
asking questions, he was 'inside' and bound by
confidentiality clauses that meant that, if he shot
his mouth off, he'd be up on treason charges
letting him shut him up and plugged the leak far more
securely than 'it's a secret, keep quiet'
-*-*-*-
> as soon as he was told, and sam quoted chapter and
> verse, he was no longer an outsider looking in and
> asking questions, he was 'inside' and bound by
> confidentiality clauses that meant that, if he shot
> his mouth off, he'd be up on treason charges
>
> letting him shut him up and plugged the leak far more
> securely than 'it's a secret, keep quiet'
>
> denise
***True, that's one way of doing it.
But, telling a guy who has proven that classified and confidential
mean nothing to him and has ignored warnings by the FBI because he
believed that he had the right to know everything, is inviting even
more problems than there already are, at least in my opinion.
In RL, I think they would've TWEP-ed him, aka Terminate With Extreme
Prejudice, meaning a suicide (they are real good at that), a car
crash, a fire,...
It's easier, faster, surer and safer than telling him anything.
Because of his personality and the proof that he doesn't respect
something being confidential, Shanahan was a security risk.
Were I a boss of one of the black teams that deal with security risks,
I would've used TWEP too.
Besides, he was just her boyfriend, why should he be allowed to know
something that wifes/husbands and children of other personnel aren't
allowed to know?
I think were someone to make waves about preferrential treatment and
favoritism, Jack and Hammond would've been fired long ago. This is
just one example where Sam has been given preferrential treatment and
there are more examples for others being given it.
-*-*--*
I don't disagree with you on anything you say.
And I'm probably as guilty as anyone of blindly sharing my happiness with
someone who was hurt by the same (your scenario rang a very loud, guilty
bell with me).
And I know that sometimes we women kind of expect our significant others or
husbands (in my case) to read our minds, but we are generally mystified when
they just don't get it. So I guess I'm saying that I could see that scene
happening, with Sam thinking only of her own pain and expecting Jack to
understand that she loved him, but Jack just being hit by the pain, and
playing the gentleman -- wanting only that the love of his life, whom he
could not legally pursue, be happy.
And they would have both walked away hurting.
And we see that Sam later realizes that she has made a mistake and has a
great deal of difficulty coming to terms with it. Fairly real.
And if you guys COMMUNICATED a little more, maybe we ladies wouldn't have to
resort to bi-directional mind reading...
-*-*-*
And exactly here is the problem.
Communication.
Most people act according to the roles assigned to them by the society.
Women show their emotions more freely, because society says that women
are more emotional. If a man shows his emotions more freely he's
considered a wuss and, when he's a kid, is beat up by the other kids
for being a "cry baby". Society expects men to be strong, show as
little emotion as possible, to be the silent support to his more
emotional partner, blah blah blah. And because this shaping of a
person. to become what society expects them to be. starts early on,
it's mostly successful.
------------------------------------
We, representatives of our genders, are what society assigned us to
be. There are exceptions to the rules of the society and I can
honestly say that I respect them immensely for having the courage to
rebel and do it their own way. They probably lead a very hard life
because of it and are constantly met with misunderstanding, hostility
and other negative reactions, from both genders.
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Also the thing is that men and women just don't communicate well
because they are so different.
Men are on different wavelength than women, plainly said, and vice versa.
It's cliche, but it's true: the only person who can understand a woman
is another woman and the only person who can understand a man is
another man.
Men process information, comprehend things,... differently than women,
and it goes the same for women.
------------------------------------
Which is why I'm giving you, ladies, an advice: don't ever assume with
guys, ask them outright if it's really what they meant. Don't ever
think that giving a hint is enough, make it plainly obvious if you
want something, even if it means spelling it out for the guy.
This doesn't mean we guys are stupid or dumb or anything like that, it
just means our thought processes are different and, what women find it
obvious, men don't.
------------------------------------
Also, relationships (I don't mean romantic ones) between men don't
consist of subtlety.
Men are always upfront towards each other (unless they are
politicians) and there are no secret meanings or subtle messages to
their messages. Everything we have to say we also say. Which is why
fights between guys are always physical and upfront and why guys
(except for politicians) don't scheme and plot.
While, on the other hand, women many times in relations with men (and
probably other women), put hidden meanings to their words, and,
because of the fact that men don't do that among each other, men don't
expect there to be hidden meanings at all, which is why they either
fail to even detect the secret meaning or fail to decode it.
------------------------------------
Harm from JAG was right: if you want us to understand you, you should
give us a reference manual, don't rely on just giving hints. (or
something like that)
So, to make the world a better place (and definitely less frustrating)
we should perhaps throw away the mind reading stuff and actually try
to communicate and ask the other person to explain out right what they
meant, instead of trying to figure it out.
Just a thought...
-*-*-*-*
Ok, I totally get what you're saying but let's look at all of the
stuff that Jack has done to convince her that nothing was going to
happen.
First of all the pesky regs are still in the way. As much as we'd
like to see a swooning dip in the control room, it ain't gonna
happen.
There are several episodes that stand out for me where Jack shuts Sam
out...the episode right after Meridian...Sam tried to get him to open
up and he brushed her off and left her standing in the hall....even
my husband thought that was cold.
Then in Full Circle when Skaara mentioned bringing Sam with him to
the wedding, he all but turned tail and ran! He can't handle it.
Grace...the infirmary scene would have been great with out
the "excuse me?" when Sam called him Jack. All that did was put up
her walls and reinforce what she thought Jack was saying. I didn't
agree with her self analysis, but that's neither here nor there.
Lost City is the one that firmed it up for me though. She tried to
tell him but he stops her, not once, but twice!! How many times do
you have to be played for a fool before you just stop trying? Yet
she does it again in Affinity...one last chance Jack...are you going
to take it? ....and the ringbox snaps shut.
Threads...she comes to his house only to interrupt him with someone
else. Granted, I don't blame him for seeking out someone else, but
after everything they have been through and all the times she has
been trying to reach out to him, she still gives it one last try. I
cringe everytime time I see that scene because I see his eyes cut to
the door and I think...oh poor Sam.
It's just frustrating. What it boils down to is we have two extremely
dedicated yet emotionally scarred individual. Each are taking cues
from each other and each are interpreting this cues incorrectly.
Someone should knock thier heads together.
-*-*-*-*-
It's not just polictians, it goes on in business ALL the time. Even among
supposedly civilized men. (there are even ones out there that could teach
Kinsey a thing or two or three about subtlety - and backstabbing. Larry Hagman
said it best. "J.R. is a pussy cat compared to what really goes on.")
I think women engage in such 'subtle' wording, because they are not allowed to
be upfront. (my grandmother was quite the proponent of subtlety, hidden
meanings, and inuendo. She often imagined things that weren't there too.) It's
'not nice', 'hurts people's feelings', etc. It is also a form of power and
manipulation, used against men as often as against other women. I rebelled
against much of what I was taught, and have worked to be more upfront, as it
really does lead to misunderstandings. sometimes major ones. (hey, I like my
husband, and I have teenage sons I'm rather partial of)
Fortunately, I do know many women who don't play those games, so it isn't a
generalized statement.
perhaps the hidden meanings was one of the things Jack was referring to when he
said he wasn't that complex. but he also wasn't known for sharing his
feelings, and probably not acknowleding them to himself very much either.
-*-*-*-
It's just frustrating. What it boils down to is we
> have two extremely
> dedicated yet emotionally scarred individual. Each
> are taking cues
> from each other and each are interpreting this cues
> incorrectly.
> Someone should knock thier heads together.
>
exactly.
neitehr of them is the villian, nor is either of them
the victim. they're mutually villianous and mutually
victimous.
they are two peopel with frakked up pasts, messed up
social lives and complicated work lives who, imho,
would rather remain friends than risk it on something
more that messes up and lose each other forever.
they like, admire, respect and even love each other.
but can they ever let themselves be vulnerable enough
to put their hearts fully in the other's hands??
vulnerability is a weakness and neither of them like
being weak
-*-*-*-
> But, telling a guy who has proven that classified
> and confidential
> mean nothing to him and has ignored warnings by the
> FBI because he
> believed that he had the right to know everything,
> is inviting even
> more problems than there already are, at least in my
> opinion.
>
i think a dead cop would be a bigger issue. cause
that would invite MORE investigations and that's the
last thing they needed with sarah blowing up vehicles
they needed it to go away, telling pete helped to make
it go away. and also put pete in the position of
shutting things up iwth his cop friends
> Besides, he was just her boyfriend, why should he be
> allowed to know
> something that wifes/husbands and children of other
> personnel aren't
> allowed to know?
>
'aren't allowed' and 'have figured out' are two
different things. do you really think that dixon's
wife has no idea what's going on and believes the
'deep space telemetry' story?
she likley doesn't even know what a stargate is, but
she knows that there's more going on in cheyenne
mountain than they're telling...but she does what
other military spouses do, they keep the secret for
thier spouses and respect the boundaries.
pete now has to respect those too. he just has a nice
officially notarized piece of paper threatening him
with bodily harm if he digs in too deep
-*-*-*-
> Sadly, I'm starting to believe that some women
> actually aren't even aware that men do have feelings
> and don't take it into consideration when they say
> or
> do something.
>
>
instead of debating all this wounded man stuff, please
remember that a MAN wrote this. or a group of men.
sam only did what the male writers wrote her to do.> Sadly, I'm starting to believe that some women
-*-*-*-*
> And if you guys COMMUNICATED a little more, maybe we
> ladies wouldn't have to
> resort to bi-directional mind reading...
>
i keep thinking how many times sam 'tried' to talk to
jack... but again, this is from the minds of the
writers.
*/--*-
i wish sam would have been shown to be mad at pete for
what he did. but then again, it didn't seem to be an
issue in the minds of the writer(s).
*-*-*-*
>instead of debating all this wounded man stuff, please
>remember that a MAN wrote this. or a group of men.
Jee!
*I* found n/a POV interesting and pertinent. I think it's a very viable way
of seeing why Jack reacted the way he did. And it's entirely possible that
Jack *was* very hurt!
Knowing that he's the kind of guy who doesn't want everyone/anyone to see
how he really feels and who goes to great lengths to camouflage his feelings
under that smartass attitude of his, I can see the reason for his actions in
that ep, assuming that he still carries that torch for Sam. The look in his
eyes when Kerry tells him that he has issues also says a lot...
>sam only did what the male writers wrote her to do.
I think that "the male writers wrote it" is kinda weak reasonning.
We got that result on screen, it became canon; much of the fun in watching
is trying to infere what happened. I find this discussion very
illumingating!
-*-*-*
I think one thing that exacerbated the situation, was AT's maternity
leave. They don't have many eps in a season (not as many as earlier
seasons), and she was gone for 25% of season 9 before she came back.
That's alot. They couldn't be sure when she'd be physically ready to
come back, and there is a limit as to how long a day she can work with
a newborn. At the same time, RDA was gone, and no longer in the
storylines. There were lots of major changes. could they have
handled it better? absolutely, but it still was a major challenge to
scripting and storylines.
I really miss Jack too. It isnt' the same without him. the show they
put back together with S9 isn't the same one I fell in love with.
Jaka is agreed with. Often. Obviously, someone should destroy the S/J list and burn it and salt the earth and stuff.
There are 9,000+ words of outrage, derision and stupid behind this cut. Please watch out for random annoyances at producers/show writers/etc. For some reason, one chick has this ONE ARGUMENT. AND. Won'T SHUT UP ABOUT IT.
Also, if you replaced Sam with Kara and Jack with Lee, I imagine this is about how most K/L meta and lists go.
*Okay I hope this is far enough, as I've said before I often don't
give my spoiler spaces enough room. Okay, in the TV Guide article
about Stargate's last episode, it said something about how "finally"
Daniel and Vala get together. FINALLY?????? Vala's been on the
show for what? Two years? Don't get me wrong, I like Vala, I like
the idea of Daniel and Vala, but for cryin' out loud, Jack and Sam
have been trying to get together for TEN YEARS now!!!!!!!
Huffily,
=-=-=-
Yeah it torqued me too.
We get no respect!
-*-*-*-*
i thought 'finally' was funny too. finally tries for a
LOT more years that two. :p
*-*-*-*
yes, well, vala racked up more propositions and
innuendo in her 26 episodes than sam did in 10 years.
-*-*-*
***Actually, Vala managed to overtake Sam in that
aspect in the first 10 minutes of the first episode
she was on the show. Looking this way, Sam was always
particularly unforthcoming about her feelings for
Jack. Not to mention the fact that I hate DV cause I
hate Daniel, but like Vala...
I've become completely disillusioned with this show
because of the (lack of) proggress of the last 10
years, especially last 2 when JS could've gotten
together, and because of the latest spoilers (mainly
Sam going to Atlantis and dating someone there) and am
now giving up this fandom cause obviously nothing of
the positive nature is ever going to happen. I can
honestly say that this show was the biggest waste of
my emotional, financial and temporal investment of my
entire life. Watching the paint dry would've been more
productive and have a bigger output than this.
I'm starting to think that TPTB hate SJ shippers and
ship and are this way getting back at us for having to
follow RDA's directions on it... Cause I can't think
of any other reason why they would completely ignore 8
years of it once RDA left and do everything to avoid
acting on their promises, even though they finally
could've.
Have wasted a lot of time on stupid things in my life,
but this show is now in the first place and it breaks
my heart cause I honestly loved it and I honestly
loved JS ship.
(if you guessed this was Jaka, you get an A+++)
-*-*-*-
I love vala...when they can pry her away from daniel
and she's allowed to be more than his arm decoration
and a foil for his supposed 'heroness' and
'studliness'
vala in uninvited was pretty good. but put her around
daniel and she's just there to pump up daniel's ego
and make him appear the hero since he's 'got the girl'
(guess they forgot that mitchell is supposed to be the
star of the show)
I could have gone either way. I love the two of them
together...but so many times when the writers woudl
write it they'd do it so ott that it was painful to
watch.
but why is daniel/vala so wonderful while sam/jack is
evil????
cause coop adores all things vala and has seemingly
spent the past 2 years doing all he can to make daniel
the star of the show instead of mitchell and making
him 'get the girl' is just part of it
the hypocrisy is overwhelming. ship is evil incarnate
and not what the show is about...unless it's the
actors/characters/pairings that we're fond of, then
it's great
coop is a ......ahem, i don't think i can say it here.
but needless to say while the man may be a good writer
and director, he's crap for a show runner
-*-*-*-
Lyssie: No, no, honey, it's Joe M. calling all of you shrill lemmings. GET IT RIGHT.
*-*-*-*
(note, this reply was above the spoiler lines, thus, spoiling anyone who didn't KNOW about them)
Wait...did you say Sam will be dating someone? um....What?
Seriously?....cause that will be the last straw for me. I've never
gone out and bought season 9 and do not plan to purchase 10 either
because in my mind, the series ended at 8. I would have been fine
with the ambiguous fishing scene because even though it was pretty
vague...it was still fishing!
I don't understand what the big darn deal is to have them together?
Even the actors themselves are wishy-washy about it....remember
the "obviously he's no threat to O'Neill" comment RDA made about
Pete? And yet AT still laments on not wanting to be "Jack's girl" but
at the same time will giggle about fishing with Jack. Pick a side of
the fence and stay there!!!
I won't say that I've wasted my time with the show because I honestly
love it for what it is...(up until the end of 8) but if it does turn
out badly for the shippers then that will be the end of my support
for the show's franchise.
-*-*-*-
What? Sam dating someone else? Where did you see this?!
I have to say that I was looking forward to Sam in Atlantis, but if she's going
to be hooking up with someone other than Jack, this is quite a shocking
disappointment. In my mind they're sooo married!
What can TPTB be thinking????
-*-*-*-
While I don't watch Atlantis anymore, I'm going to COMPLETE ERASE THE SPOILER
FROM MY MIND. IT DOES NOT EXIST.
-- (an expert in reshaping the world into her vision...where Jack and Sam
have been together since the end of season 8)
-*-*-*-
***wish I could do the same. amnesia (or brain
washing) never looked so good before.
-*-*-*-
***That's what I heard. It may not be true (just
another rumor those rabid Danielites are trying to
spread) or it is true.
But with the way Sam's always been inconsistent about
her relationship with Jack and leaning towards
immediately taking "other options" (Orlin, Narim,
Martouf, Joe -married the guy in the first version and
agreed to a date in the second try, Pete - got
engaged,...) I wouldn't deny the chance that she
would, again, leave Jack behind and look for a newer,
less scarred model on Atlantis.
Okay, that was harsh of me, but I'm really pissed with
the way the show's been going and I can honestly say
that I haven't liked Sam, or the way she's become,
since Chimera, so I'm now always expecting the worst
of her.
But, on the other hand, if she's really supposed to
take command of Atlantis, then she would again be in
the same position with her lover that she was with
Jack, the regs preventing anything.
***The thing is, RDA was one of the PTB, while AT is
not.
While he was with the show and on TPTB, RDA's word and
wishes meant something, he could influence the show.
But since he's been gone, PTB's heads have been
inflated and they've been going crazy with glee over
not having him there anymore to hold the torch of SJ
ship (supposedly he himself has declared that he was a
shipper). And the results of TPTB's crazy glee over
having control of the show and with 'the old man' gone
are now plainly visible, in the decline of the
quality, many old fans leaving, many different shipper
and character fans groups pissed and feeling
betrayed,...
AT has never stayed on one side of the fence, she's
always been jumping from one side to the other, like
she either can't decide or is not a strong enough
personality to make a decision and stick with it.
AT has never been consistent in her interviews and
comments on SJ. Was gushing over RDA and how SJ are
good together in one interview, with bashing SJ and
not wanting Sam to be Jack's girl (which is completely
ridiculous) in the next.
Has also made a lot of really stupid and dumb comments
that have seriously sunk my opinion and respect for
her over the years (the suggestion that SJ should have
a night of sex and then move on from each other is
just one example). To the point that I'm ignoring and
not even remotely taking serious anything she says.
-*-*-*-
Sadly, I have to agree... I'm a huge AT fan and I think that's she's
just trying to be nice but seriously I'm so tired of the ambiguity.
Get them together or close that door forever. Don't feed us just
enough to keep us begging and then snatch it away.
It's ridiculous and demeaning to those who have loved the
characters. We didn't make up the relationship.... if they wanted to
keep it platonic, then they should have cut the hugging scene in Into
the Fire I think... and it never would have progressed this far.
I'm going to hold onto the hope that it's just a rumor until I see it
for myself because I really do love the pairing and want to see it
come to a happy shippy ending. :-)
(agreeing with Jaka. AUTOMATIC FAIL, BABY)
-*-*-*-
WTF??? You're kidding, right? Geesh! Has anyone sent Joe or any of
the other PTB a note asking about this? Not that they would probably
tell us, but man! String us along for ten years, give the audience
that wants it Daniel/Vala, but we're just supposed to suck it up and
not get a resolution. I agree, they must hate the shippers, 'cause
they give the Daniel folks whatever they want!
GRRRRR!!!!
-*-*-*-
***I love Vala, too. I think she's great, and I like the idea of
Daniel and Vala getting together, I think they're good together, but
when do the S/Jer's get their share of the time?
-*-*-*-
> I love vala...when they can pry her away from daniel
> and she's allowed to be more than his arm decoration
> and a foil for his supposed 'heroness' and
> 'studliness'
***I totally agree. I love her and, if they really
have to pair her off with someone, I'd rather it be
Cam.
And the way they are using her to inflate Jackson's
ego and image really bugs me, they are practically
raping her character. They took away her dignity with
the way they're treating her.
> vala in uninvited was pretty good. but put her
> around
> daniel and she's just there to pump up daniel's ego
> and make him appear the hero since he's 'got the
> girl'
> (guess they forgot that mitchell is supposed to be
> the
> star of the show)
***I totally agree. Never liked Jackson, always found
him too full of himself, too careless and callous,
disrespectful, annoying, rash, impulsive, dumb (high
IQ means shit when that person disobeys direct orders
and blows an ambush, almost getting his team killed),
egotistic, egomanical,...
As a fellow SJ fan has called him, he's "ego on legs".
> I could have gone either way. I love the two of them
> together...but so many times when the writers woudl
> write it they'd do it so ott that it was painful to
> watch.
***I know what you mean. 2001, 2010, Chimera,
Affinity, end of beneath the surface,.. those are just
some of the eps that come to mind.
> but why is daniel/vala so wonderful while sam/jack
> is
> evil????
***Because SJ was a promise made by the previous
leadership and because the "hip new demographics"
don't want to see a 42 year old and a 55 year old
getting it on, SJ have gotten too old to be attractive
anymore to the PTB.
They think the new demographics rather watch a newer,
younger crew.
It's always the same thing with every single longer
lasting show. And this elimination of the old crew
ALWAYS eventually destroys the show. Happened to the
X-Files (while I liked Monica and her open-minded
approach, Doggett just got on my nerves), to JAG
(didn't even last a season after the major change of
crew and didn't even last 2 months after them firing
the lead was made public),...
> cause coop adores all things vala and has seemingly
> spent the past 2 years doing all he can to make
> daniel
> the star of the show instead of mitchell and making
> him 'get the girl' is just part of it
***I never liked the concept of the hero "getting the
girl". That's always been too chauvinistic and sexist
to me.
If a couple get's together I want them to get together
because they honestly love each other, cherish,
respect and trust each other and are in love, not
because one of them is either settling for second best
without ever having tried to get the first best; or
because the guy is supposed to be some hero and he
then gets the girl as some kind of prize of war or
some shit like that, with the woman being displayed
like some brainless groupie. Always hated that
treatment of female characters.
DV have never been compatible to me, Daniel could
never "handle" (meaning not be overrun by her
personality or be able to tame her wild impulses) a
woman like Vala, he has problems leading his own life
and controlling himself as it is.
*--*-*-
> ***That's what I heard. It may not be true (just
> another rumor those rabid Danielites are trying to
> spread) or it is true.
>
i was gonna say. i personally would write that off as
s*** stirring by the OTT daniel fans until i hear it
from a credible source
-*-*-*-
> ***I love Vala, too. I think she's great, and I
> like the idea of
> Daniel and Vala getting together, I think they're
> good together, but
> when do the S/Jer's get their share of the time?
>
maybe in continuum. cause netu will freeze before coop
does any ship that ain't his oh so hallowed
daniel/vala.
heck, it's like he doesn't even want rda on the show.
they sign the man for 5 eps and he gets shunted off to
atlantis for 3 of them
*-*-*-*
> ***I never liked the concept of the hero "getting
> the
> girl". That's always been too chauvinistic and
> sexist
> to me.
>
look at the characters that coop writes. if it's a
woman, she's a cliche. heck, he couldn't even figure
out what to do with sam if jack wasn't around. if
she's not
maternal
boobs
hero's girlfriend
he doesn't know what to do with her
vala COULD have been really great. but coop couldn't
ever pry her away from daniel for long enough to have
her be anything but a cliche. which is a loss and a
waste of claudia's talents
(on that last, um... did this fucking idiot MISS ALL OF DOMINION????)
-*-*-*-
In reality, no CO (certainly not a Jack type who hated scientists in the first
place, no matter what he did once.) would have tolerated Daniel's crap and
insubordination - even if he was a civilian. He's lucky the only person his
rashness has ever gotten killed was him. (and the writers just *had* to bring
him back.) He'd have been relegated to a lab permanently long ago. The
writer's wanted to use him as a foil for Jack.
I too am sick of Daniel. Even my boys have commented "why can't he stay dead?"
I'm also no fan of Michael Shanks.
There's no way they would put Vala with Cam, as it would have to many people
comparing them to farscape-where the characters they played were together. (I
think I dislike Cam - he's not a good actor ((I'm also offended TPTB thought he
could replace RDA)) - even more than Daniel.)
I liked Vala better when she was doing a first rate job of needling Daniel.
They should have let the how die at the end of season 8, it would have been more
respectful to all characters, not just the S/J ship. I sooo miss RDA. Maybe
AT is so afraid of Sam being "Jack's girl", because she is such a "people
pleaser" she doesn't make her own convictions. After all, her pro-ship
comments are to pro-ship audiences, and the "don't want to be jack's girl", to
those who hate ship. Jack is actually one of only a very few males Sam has
had something with that actually treated her like an equal. (well, excepting
the difference in rank thing.) She would have been a 'partner', not an arm
decoration - eye candy.
--*-*-*-
I have been reading all the comments on this subject and I must say
this is most satisfying conversation I've read in a long time! I
totally agree with pretty much ALL the comments. I have thought for a
long time that the characters are not even "in character" anymore,
the show has turned into such a joke.
-*-*-*-
a 'partner', not an arm decoration - eye candy.
> >
i think, while amanda certainy enjoys working with
rick, i think she's all too aware of these writers'
weaknesses...ie the girl is nothing more than a
girlfriend...and when the guy leaves, dude why does
the girl have to even be around???
we saw a lot of this in s9. coop 'didn't know what to
do with sam' now that jack was gone. he simply
couldn't figure out what to do with a female character
if she wasnt' someone's girlfriend.
in the hands of writers and show runners like this,
i'm thinking that AT saw the vulnerablilty of her
character - and her job. and i think that's what she
means when she has issue with being 'jack's girl'
it's not being paired up with jack that's the issue,
it's the weaknesses of the writers and their inability
to give her a story that's not boyfriend based (which,
with all honesty, has been a very notable weakness
since brad left in s7. sam has been little more than
the sum of her relationships...and it's all been under
coop's 'leadership')
-*-*-*-
You have some really good points about Brad leaving. It's just, there were alot
of times when he was there where she was hooked up with some guy for no valid
reason.
they started the S/J stuff in the fourth episode of season 1. (and putting her
with other guys - whether welcome or not - before that.) I'm sure the writers
thought of it as a joke, and then it ran away from them. (or bit them)
but we know how poorly Sam was viewed by the writers from her very first scene
in Children of the Gods.
-*-*-*-
We'll, there is the fact that next to Jack, Daniel is the star, right? look
at the way the credits are done -- the implication of "with Michael Shanks"
is that he is special. Not to take anything away from Shanks as an actor I
think has remarkable comedic timing and also a good dramatic actor, but RDA
has proven his worth as a star, producer and an actor over the long haul. I
hesitate to say this, but. . . .I'm a Jack O'Neill fan, so I ain't afraid
Jack threatens Daniels position. Okay, I said it.
-*-*-*-
The past two years have really been hard on Sam's character. It's
almost like they were trying to sabotage her. I remember reading the
interview with AT on Gateworld where she said that she really missed
Daniel (both as AT and Sam)this last season. I'm not MS's biggest
fan, after meeting him at a con...but I really loved the interaction
between the two. Once Vala (who has actually grown on me) came onto
the scene it was like they couldn't get rid of Sam fast enough.
There was almost no interaction with them.
I've been watching the old shows leading up to the finale and while I
don't understand the choice of some of the episodes (Icon? Really?),
I've been having a wonderful time revisiting these characters. The
S/J dynamic was what drew me into the show before I really even
understood what i was watching. I'll forever miss Jack - he totally
made the show.
*-*-*-*
I think you meant to say you're not afraid Daniel threatens Jack's position,
right? I agree. I think it's true that with Jack gone, Daniel is the
star. But he can't fill Jack's shoes.
Which isn't to say that I don't like Daniel, because I do. It's
interesting, because if I were asked what made me a rabid fan of SG-1, I
would say it was the team dynamic. Though Jack is my favorite, I really
like all the (original) characters, and the way they interacted with each
other. I like Daniel a lot, too. However, with Jack gone, it's clearer
than ever that he was the lynchpin. He was the one that made the show truly
special. Because in Season 6, the absence of Daniel didn't cause the show
to lose it's "oomph." But the absence of Jack has done so. Yes, I'd have
to say that it is Jack's absence that's been the real killer, and not just
the annoying new characters or the annoying failure to make Sam team leader.
As for this rumor about Sam dating someone when she goes to Atlantis, I'm
certainly hoping that's false. Because if it isn't, I'd have to assume the
producers are tired of their jobs and are trying to kill the Stargate
franchise as quickly as possible. It's my attachment to the original SG-1
(Seasons 1 - 8) that sustains my interest in the franchise. If they do
something that is untrue to the spirit of the characters I fell in love with
(and Sam not ending up with Jack would certainly qualify), I will become
disgusted and lose all interest. And I think the same thing would happen to
a very large part of their audience -- as the people on this board have
already indicated. (And as, I guess, has already happened to part of the
audience. If they keep it up, they'll lose the rest.)
-*-*-*-
> You have some really good points about Brad leaving.
> It's just, there were alot of times when he was
> there where she was hooked up with some guy for no
> valid reason.
>
in episodic tv, a lot of that happens. regular deals
with an attraction from guest of the week. and since
sam is the only girl, she'd get 'hooked' up with every
single male guest star.
but under brad sam also had the tok'ra story line and
the jolinar storyline. she had some great development
adn potential.
but since s7 and very especially since s9....she's
just there to say the lines that are too tough for hte
boys to memorize :)
*-*-*-*
> In reality, no CO (certainly not a Jack type who
> hated scientists in the first place, no matter what
> he did once.) would have tolerated Daniel's crap
> and insubordination - even if he was a civilian.
> He's lucky the only person his rashness has ever
> gotten killed was him. (and the writers just *had*
> to bring him back.) He'd have been relegated to a
> lab permanently long ago. The writer's wanted to
> use him as a foil for Jack.
***Most definitely. No military man would take
Daniel's crap, definitely not for this long and
definitely not a man of Jack's type.
I too wish he would've died and stayed dead. This
resurrecting annoys me and is also disrespectful to
others who have died and stayed dead (not just Jacob
and Janet but every good person who died on SG),
because it's sending the message that THEY weren't
worthy of life, while some little shit like Daniel is
supposed to be oh so special. Even though he's
continually getting other people killed and making
such basic mistakes even a first year History student
and boot camp recruit wouldn't.
> I think I dislike Cam - he's not a good
> actor
***This is the only point where I disagree with you.
Had Ben not been an amazing actor (and he proved it
countless times over) he wouldn't have gotten so many
medals and awards for his acting (more than all former
SG1 crew, without Jack, put together) in the 4 years
of Farscape.
He's great with drama, tragedy and comedy. You would
just have to watch all those powerful sad or funny
Farscape eps.
> I liked Vala better when she was doing a first rate
> job of needling Daniel.
***Me too.
> They should have let the how die at the end of
> season 8, it would have been more respectful to all
> characters, not just the S/J ship.
***I agree.
> I sooo miss
> RDA.
***Me too.
> Maybe AT is so afraid of Sam being "Jack's
> girl", because she is such a "people pleaser" she
> doesn't make her own convictions.
***Which means that she herself doesn't have a strong
personality, isn't strong as a person, isn't secure in
herself and always has a compulsion to please others
and is not secure in who she is to be who she is.
> ship. Jack is actually one of only a very few
> males Sam has had something with that actually
> treated her like an equal. (well, excepting the
> difference in rank thing.) She would have been a
> 'partner', not an arm decoration - eye candy.
***Most definitely, considering that her ALL
boyfriends and fiancees were either weirdoes obssessed
with her, were traitors, were control freaks or
something else just as bad. She was right, she really
is attracted to the maniacs, except for Jack.
Jack was never a lunatic and would've been the only
one to treat her like an equal and consult her on all
decisions and not made her decisions without her
input.
But, which proves my point, she never did make an
effort to be with him, had she...
This is the core of my bone with Sam... She never made
an effort to be with Jack, she gave him and what they
had up without even a fight.
And, as a Jack fan, this is that something that I
can't forgive and why I started disliking her in the
last seasons, which was even compounded with the way
she handled her relationship with Shanahan when it
came to Jack (the scene in the elevator in Chimera was
completely rude and Jack deserved to find out about
her boy toy in a private setting at his home where he
would have the chance for no-one to see how it
affected him, where he could lick his wounds and where
he could have some power over the situation by sending
her home so he could process it and be hurting
privatly; then there is also the cruel way she thrust
that ring in his face and countless other occasions
where Jack was reminded of the fact that she's
marrying another guy, a guy who definitely wasn't
worthy of her. Or fully deserved her, considering how
she was acting. Hell, I don't know).
*/-*-/-
i love amanda/sam. can you guys take this into private
convos?
(oh, thank god. Someone... well, not sane.)
-=-=-=
> As for this rumor about Sam dating someone when she goes to Atlantis, I'm
> certainly hoping that's false.
It's a rumor. JM made a facetious remark on his blog about shipping Sam on
SGA. A llot of what he says has no merit (his idea of a joke) but not all fans
see it that way.
-=-=-=-
And I always thought that Sam showed Jack the ring to give him the
opportunity to stop her. When he didn't, that made her think that there was
no hope for a "them", and she said yes to Pete because she wanted a life.
But it was a difficult decision for her.
As for Amanda, she's always been good about not giving anything away at
conventions, and I think that a lot of the time she's cracking jokes, but
people are taking her seriously. Her references relate more to the writers
than to her own opinion. And she's an excellent, smart actress who takes
the material she's given and really sells it to the viewer, whether she
agrees with the characterization or not.
-*-*-*-*
>i love amanda/sam. can you guys take this into private
>convos?
Why? They *are* discussing Jack and Sam!
I, for one is interested in their POV.
Some things need to be said, and who can say that Sam has been all that
kindhearted in the way she treated Jack in the posts' mentionned moments...?
I like Sam very much as a character: she's, in many ways, a great role model
on TV.
I like Amanda as a person too: she's seems like a pleasant woman to get to
know and seems to have a great sense of humour. From the interactions
between her and RDA from that convention in England some people were kind
enough to relate on other lists (or even here, I don't remember) they seem
to have a very nice work relationship.
So, I don't think those posts violate the mendates of this list (I could be
wrong, and a mod will surely let us know).
I'm just saying!
-*-*-*-*
> And I always thought that Sam showed Jack the ring
> to give him the
> opportunity to stop her. When he didn't, that made
> her think that there was
> no hope for a "them", and she said yes to Pete
> because she wanted a life.
> But it was a difficult decision for her.
***Okay, let's take it from a man's (Jack's) POV:
1. when he found out about Shanahan she told him it
was "nothing serious". Which would mean, she threw
away their feelings (whatever they were) and 6 years
of friendship for meaningless sex. That's what
"nothing serious" means. THAT had to hurt, BADLY.
2. she's been dating another guy for 7 months (or
more) by then, thus proving to JAck that she had no
feelings for him (left).
3. she obviuosly cared enough for the bozo to go
against the prime directive and plead for the jerk to
be given clearance even though what he deserved was to
be regarded as a threat to national security and a
traitor for what he did, like every other person
would've been regarded. Yes, these are the charges
that would've been brought against him in RL, if he
wasn't eliminated outright. Remember that reporter in
"Secrets"? THAT's how Shanahan would've been dealth
with had TPTB not had bigger plans for him.
4. she cared enough for the bozo to take the ring and
not say NO immediately.
5. she was talking about having kids with the guy
seconds before showing the ring, which must've hurt
badly.
6. she hasn't shown ANY kind of romantic feelings for
Jack for years before then, in fact, her relationship
clearly showed him that she DIDN'T have ANY feelings
for him left, had they been there in the first place.
Had she really loved Jack and wanted to be with him,
she would've done something to be able to be with him
long ago, she was a (supposedly) extremely intelligent
woman and would've definitely found a way.
7. last, but definitely not least, there were still
the REGS. Yes, Jack was still her CO, she was still
his subordinate (even though she wasn't her 2IC
anymore), now it was even more forbidden since he had
the entire facility to command, unlike before when he
only had the team.
Add to that, that they were in front of a surveilance
camera, that was filming every move they made.
--------------------------------
So, look at it from Jack's POV: the woman who he loved
for years, who has given him a renewed hope for a life
after his son had died and after the divorce when he
gave in to dying alone, and has then thrown their
history away for meaningless sex and has been dating
that guy for months shows you the ring he gave her;
and she does it in a pretty callous and hurtful way.
She could've done it A LOT more sensitively.
Jack had to be immensely hurt and reeling from the
latest stab in his heart and probably didn't know
where up and where down was. The only thing on his
mind was to get the hell out of there to regroup, lick
his wounds, rebuild his walls, and pretend he wasn't
hurting; but mainly to get out of there.
He was hurt, confused, stunned, shocked and he
desperately wanted to get the hell out of there,...
and with him being in that condition you expect him to
be able to decrypt Sam's seriously encrypted, so
subtle that even a cryptologist wouldn't understand
it, question and give her the answer she wanted?
Are you serious?
I've been in a situation very similar, actually it was
almost identical, to Jack's before, where the girl I
had feelings for had been leading me on, making me
believe she had feelings for me, we've been making
steps into a serious relationship, until one day I
found out that she actually had a boyfriend and has
had even before she met me... And I've known that girl
for only 2 years by then and definitely wasn't as in
love with her as Jack was with Sam, but it HURT, it
hurt terribly, I felt betrayed (as Jack definitely
felt), and, not only that, but my defences kicked in
and demanded that I get the hell out of there before I
let on just how she hurt me, before I lost every last
bit of my pride and dignity I had left. And I did, as
Jack had, I retreated also, to protect myself, to
regroup,...
We ALL know that Jack is a pretty defensive person,
who guards his feelings and heart jealously to prevent
it from being hurt again, is also a proud person, and
his first, and strongest, instict would've been to
protect himself, to run away. Which is what he did.
And let me tell you from experience, Jack was not able
to be decrypting anything, least of all vague answers
from a woman who, not only was seriously considering
marrying and having kids with another man, but has
shown him during the last few years that not only did
she not feel the same anymore (since she had
repeatedly accepted advances from other men and then
got involved with Stalker-cop), but that his feelings
and them acting on those feelings were unappreciated
and unwanted.
Why then wouldn't she do anything after she'd forced
him to confess his love to her before an audience.
Imagine how humiliating and hard it had to be for Jack
to confess his love before an audience, only for her
to ask him to pretend as if he had not feelings for
her, to keep it in the room.
We never found out what Sam had said to Anise...
And in the "man-woman dictionary" Sam's request to
keep it in the room would be translated into: I don't
want you, I don't want these feelings and I don't want
to have a relationship with you.
Then that woman hooks up or attempts to (before they
either die - Joe, Orlin,... or have to leave - Barrett
and that Major Something) with every guest star on the
show that comes her way and finds herself a boytoy for
sex when she wants it, starts dating the boytoy and
lastly ponders on having kids with the boytoy...
Are you getting what I'm trying to say?
I'm sorry to say this, but I've seen many insinuations
like yours on the net during the last few years, which
leads me to ask: "Do the women that ask these
questions, that believe Jack understood her question
and should've fallen to his knees before her and
begged her not to marry the clown; do these women even
know that men DO have feelings, that we DO get hurt?"
Sadly, I'm starting to believe that some women
actually aren't even aware that men do have feelings
and don't take it into consideration when they say or
do something.
What I'm trying to say is: I know that since you're a
woman you'll always immediately defend the sisterhood
and all (which is understandable), but try to make an
exception once, try to take into consideration that
guys actually have feelings and can get hurt.
Women are not the only victims in relationships, no
matter how much they think they are, and especially
they are not always the only victims; men get hurt
too.
We just hide it better. We don't go crying, or call up
our friends and cry in their ears on the phone, curs
our (former) partner, bitch and curse her and rant
what a bitch she was, we don't burn her pictures and
her stuff, we don't throw all her stuff out on the
lawn, we don't stuff ourselves with chocolate or ice
cream, watch sappy romance movies, destroy for a
rainforest of hankies,...
When a man gets hurt he closes himself off, unless
he's a wuss or over-emotional he won't give away that
he's hurting (especially to the woman who hurt him),
he won't cry, he won't rage, he won't do the things a
woman does when a guy hurts her; a guy does one thing:
he closes himself off and doesn't permit any feelings
to show. And then what many men do is to get drunk and
drown their sorrow in alcohol. Others find some other
way to get over it.
But the thing they have in common is never showing
their feelings to others, especially to the woman who
hurt him.
And THAT is what Jack did in that scene and because of
those 8 reasons I gave he was unable to act on that
completely vague question.
Besides, wasn't his answer good enough?
I wouldn't be here...
He gave her the answer. Had things been different he
would've been home with their kids, waiting for her to
get home.
His answer was on the exact same wavelength as her
question, yet so many fans ignore the fact that he DID
answer...
Take care.
-*-*-*-
I too thought she showed the ring to Jack in hopes he'd give her a reason to say
no. I thought she only said yes because she was caught up in the adrenalin and
celebratory emotion (and *impulse*) of the moment when the op (proving Teal'c
innocent) was finished, and potatohead happened to be there. I thought her
reasons quite lame.
I would have enjoyed seeing a friendship between Jack and Kawalsky develop. It
would have felt more real, than Jack developing a friendship with someone who
lives in his head, and not the real world, but acts like it is the real world
and drags others into his versions.
resurrected. (Of course, Jacob - that actually bothered me more than Janet.
Possibly because my own father died when I was 12)
At least we have some good ship writers, even if the show isn't giving ideas.
-*-*-*-
> 3. she obviuosly cared enough for the bozo to go
> against the prime directive and plead for the jerk
> to
> be given clearance even though what he deserved was
> to
> be regarded as a threat to national security and a
> traitor for what he did, like every other person
> would've been regarded. Yes, these are the charges
> that would've been brought against him in RL, if he
> wasn't eliminated outright. Remember that reporter
> in
> "Secrets"? THAT's how Shanahan would've been dealth
> with had TPTB not had bigger plans for him.
>
IIRC, there is no canon proof of WHO got pete his
clearance. It is just as likely tthat giving him
clearance was a way to gag him.
as soon as he was told, and sam quoted chapter and
verse, he was no longer an outsider looking in and
asking questions, he was 'inside' and bound by
confidentiality clauses that meant that, if he shot
his mouth off, he'd be up on treason charges
letting him shut him up and plugged the leak far more
securely than 'it's a secret, keep quiet'
-*-*-*-
> as soon as he was told, and sam quoted chapter and
> verse, he was no longer an outsider looking in and
> asking questions, he was 'inside' and bound by
> confidentiality clauses that meant that, if he shot
> his mouth off, he'd be up on treason charges
>
> letting him shut him up and plugged the leak far more
> securely than 'it's a secret, keep quiet'
>
> denise
***True, that's one way of doing it.
But, telling a guy who has proven that classified and confidential
mean nothing to him and has ignored warnings by the FBI because he
believed that he had the right to know everything, is inviting even
more problems than there already are, at least in my opinion.
In RL, I think they would've TWEP-ed him, aka Terminate With Extreme
Prejudice, meaning a suicide (they are real good at that), a car
crash, a fire,...
It's easier, faster, surer and safer than telling him anything.
Because of his personality and the proof that he doesn't respect
something being confidential, Shanahan was a security risk.
Were I a boss of one of the black teams that deal with security risks,
I would've used TWEP too.
Besides, he was just her boyfriend, why should he be allowed to know
something that wifes/husbands and children of other personnel aren't
allowed to know?
I think were someone to make waves about preferrential treatment and
favoritism, Jack and Hammond would've been fired long ago. This is
just one example where Sam has been given preferrential treatment and
there are more examples for others being given it.
-*-*--*
I don't disagree with you on anything you say.
And I'm probably as guilty as anyone of blindly sharing my happiness with
someone who was hurt by the same (your scenario rang a very loud, guilty
bell with me).
And I know that sometimes we women kind of expect our significant others or
husbands (in my case) to read our minds, but we are generally mystified when
they just don't get it. So I guess I'm saying that I could see that scene
happening, with Sam thinking only of her own pain and expecting Jack to
understand that she loved him, but Jack just being hit by the pain, and
playing the gentleman -- wanting only that the love of his life, whom he
could not legally pursue, be happy.
And they would have both walked away hurting.
And we see that Sam later realizes that she has made a mistake and has a
great deal of difficulty coming to terms with it. Fairly real.
And if you guys COMMUNICATED a little more, maybe we ladies wouldn't have to
resort to bi-directional mind reading...
-*-*-*
And exactly here is the problem.
Communication.
Most people act according to the roles assigned to them by the society.
Women show their emotions more freely, because society says that women
are more emotional. If a man shows his emotions more freely he's
considered a wuss and, when he's a kid, is beat up by the other kids
for being a "cry baby". Society expects men to be strong, show as
little emotion as possible, to be the silent support to his more
emotional partner, blah blah blah. And because this shaping of a
person. to become what society expects them to be. starts early on,
it's mostly successful.
------------------------------------
We, representatives of our genders, are what society assigned us to
be. There are exceptions to the rules of the society and I can
honestly say that I respect them immensely for having the courage to
rebel and do it their own way. They probably lead a very hard life
because of it and are constantly met with misunderstanding, hostility
and other negative reactions, from both genders.
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Also the thing is that men and women just don't communicate well
because they are so different.
Men are on different wavelength than women, plainly said, and vice versa.
It's cliche, but it's true: the only person who can understand a woman
is another woman and the only person who can understand a man is
another man.
Men process information, comprehend things,... differently than women,
and it goes the same for women.
------------------------------------
Which is why I'm giving you, ladies, an advice: don't ever assume with
guys, ask them outright if it's really what they meant. Don't ever
think that giving a hint is enough, make it plainly obvious if you
want something, even if it means spelling it out for the guy.
This doesn't mean we guys are stupid or dumb or anything like that, it
just means our thought processes are different and, what women find it
obvious, men don't.
------------------------------------
Also, relationships (I don't mean romantic ones) between men don't
consist of subtlety.
Men are always upfront towards each other (unless they are
politicians) and there are no secret meanings or subtle messages to
their messages. Everything we have to say we also say. Which is why
fights between guys are always physical and upfront and why guys
(except for politicians) don't scheme and plot.
While, on the other hand, women many times in relations with men (and
probably other women), put hidden meanings to their words, and,
because of the fact that men don't do that among each other, men don't
expect there to be hidden meanings at all, which is why they either
fail to even detect the secret meaning or fail to decode it.
------------------------------------
Harm from JAG was right: if you want us to understand you, you should
give us a reference manual, don't rely on just giving hints. (or
something like that)
So, to make the world a better place (and definitely less frustrating)
we should perhaps throw away the mind reading stuff and actually try
to communicate and ask the other person to explain out right what they
meant, instead of trying to figure it out.
Just a thought...
-*-*-*-*
Ok, I totally get what you're saying but let's look at all of the
stuff that Jack has done to convince her that nothing was going to
happen.
First of all the pesky regs are still in the way. As much as we'd
like to see a swooning dip in the control room, it ain't gonna
happen.
There are several episodes that stand out for me where Jack shuts Sam
out...the episode right after Meridian...Sam tried to get him to open
up and he brushed her off and left her standing in the hall....even
my husband thought that was cold.
Then in Full Circle when Skaara mentioned bringing Sam with him to
the wedding, he all but turned tail and ran! He can't handle it.
Grace...the infirmary scene would have been great with out
the "excuse me?" when Sam called him Jack. All that did was put up
her walls and reinforce what she thought Jack was saying. I didn't
agree with her self analysis, but that's neither here nor there.
Lost City is the one that firmed it up for me though. She tried to
tell him but he stops her, not once, but twice!! How many times do
you have to be played for a fool before you just stop trying? Yet
she does it again in Affinity...one last chance Jack...are you going
to take it? ....and the ringbox snaps shut.
Threads...she comes to his house only to interrupt him with someone
else. Granted, I don't blame him for seeking out someone else, but
after everything they have been through and all the times she has
been trying to reach out to him, she still gives it one last try. I
cringe everytime time I see that scene because I see his eyes cut to
the door and I think...oh poor Sam.
It's just frustrating. What it boils down to is we have two extremely
dedicated yet emotionally scarred individual. Each are taking cues
from each other and each are interpreting this cues incorrectly.
Someone should knock thier heads together.
-*-*-*-*-
It's not just polictians, it goes on in business ALL the time. Even among
supposedly civilized men. (there are even ones out there that could teach
Kinsey a thing or two or three about subtlety - and backstabbing. Larry Hagman
said it best. "J.R. is a pussy cat compared to what really goes on.")
I think women engage in such 'subtle' wording, because they are not allowed to
be upfront. (my grandmother was quite the proponent of subtlety, hidden
meanings, and inuendo. She often imagined things that weren't there too.) It's
'not nice', 'hurts people's feelings', etc. It is also a form of power and
manipulation, used against men as often as against other women. I rebelled
against much of what I was taught, and have worked to be more upfront, as it
really does lead to misunderstandings. sometimes major ones. (hey, I like my
husband, and I have teenage sons I'm rather partial of)
Fortunately, I do know many women who don't play those games, so it isn't a
generalized statement.
perhaps the hidden meanings was one of the things Jack was referring to when he
said he wasn't that complex. but he also wasn't known for sharing his
feelings, and probably not acknowleding them to himself very much either.
-*-*-*-
It's just frustrating. What it boils down to is we
> have two extremely
> dedicated yet emotionally scarred individual. Each
> are taking cues
> from each other and each are interpreting this cues
> incorrectly.
> Someone should knock thier heads together.
>
exactly.
neitehr of them is the villian, nor is either of them
the victim. they're mutually villianous and mutually
victimous.
they are two peopel with frakked up pasts, messed up
social lives and complicated work lives who, imho,
would rather remain friends than risk it on something
more that messes up and lose each other forever.
they like, admire, respect and even love each other.
but can they ever let themselves be vulnerable enough
to put their hearts fully in the other's hands??
vulnerability is a weakness and neither of them like
being weak
-*-*-*-
> But, telling a guy who has proven that classified
> and confidential
> mean nothing to him and has ignored warnings by the
> FBI because he
> believed that he had the right to know everything,
> is inviting even
> more problems than there already are, at least in my
> opinion.
>
i think a dead cop would be a bigger issue. cause
that would invite MORE investigations and that's the
last thing they needed with sarah blowing up vehicles
they needed it to go away, telling pete helped to make
it go away. and also put pete in the position of
shutting things up iwth his cop friends
> Besides, he was just her boyfriend, why should he be
> allowed to know
> something that wifes/husbands and children of other
> personnel aren't
> allowed to know?
>
'aren't allowed' and 'have figured out' are two
different things. do you really think that dixon's
wife has no idea what's going on and believes the
'deep space telemetry' story?
she likley doesn't even know what a stargate is, but
she knows that there's more going on in cheyenne
mountain than they're telling...but she does what
other military spouses do, they keep the secret for
thier spouses and respect the boundaries.
pete now has to respect those too. he just has a nice
officially notarized piece of paper threatening him
with bodily harm if he digs in too deep
-*-*-*-
> Sadly, I'm starting to believe that some women
> actually aren't even aware that men do have feelings
> and don't take it into consideration when they say
> or
> do something.
>
>
instead of debating all this wounded man stuff, please
remember that a MAN wrote this. or a group of men.
sam only did what the male writers wrote her to do.> Sadly, I'm starting to believe that some women
-*-*-*-*
> And if you guys COMMUNICATED a little more, maybe we
> ladies wouldn't have to
> resort to bi-directional mind reading...
>
i keep thinking how many times sam 'tried' to talk to
jack... but again, this is from the minds of the
writers.
*/--*-
i wish sam would have been shown to be mad at pete for
what he did. but then again, it didn't seem to be an
issue in the minds of the writer(s).
*-*-*-*
>instead of debating all this wounded man stuff, please
>remember that a MAN wrote this. or a group of men.
Jee!
*I* found n/a POV interesting and pertinent. I think it's a very viable way
of seeing why Jack reacted the way he did. And it's entirely possible that
Jack *was* very hurt!
Knowing that he's the kind of guy who doesn't want everyone/anyone to see
how he really feels and who goes to great lengths to camouflage his feelings
under that smartass attitude of his, I can see the reason for his actions in
that ep, assuming that he still carries that torch for Sam. The look in his
eyes when Kerry tells him that he has issues also says a lot...
>sam only did what the male writers wrote her to do.
I think that "the male writers wrote it" is kinda weak reasonning.
We got that result on screen, it became canon; much of the fun in watching
is trying to infere what happened. I find this discussion very
illumingating!
-*-*-*
I think one thing that exacerbated the situation, was AT's maternity
leave. They don't have many eps in a season (not as many as earlier
seasons), and she was gone for 25% of season 9 before she came back.
That's alot. They couldn't be sure when she'd be physically ready to
come back, and there is a limit as to how long a day she can work with
a newborn. At the same time, RDA was gone, and no longer in the
storylines. There were lots of major changes. could they have
handled it better? absolutely, but it still was a major challenge to
scripting and storylines.
I really miss Jack too. It isnt' the same without him. the show they
put back together with S9 isn't the same one I fell in love with.
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Ah, Stargate fandom. Don't ever change. Well, actually, if you changed, it would be for the best, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
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It wasn't bravery, I'm cranky. ;)
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Also at what utter twats they are.
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;)
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I did go a few rounds with Ratliff though, in which she insisted on taking everything I said out of context. Wasted one whole Saturday of my life. Bleah.
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It's one thing to laugh at them when they're being silly, but that's a lot of hate to laugh off.
*hugs lj*
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Why be into a ship if you clearly despise one half of it? Precisely the reason that I like Sam and Jack together is that I like both Sam and Jack. I think they're wonderful people who clearly care about each other a lot and they'd be good together.
Oh, wait...I'm using Earth-logic again, aren't I? Damn. Gotta stop doing that.
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:shakes head:
Holy Crap, those people are nuts.
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Hmmm...
They whine, bitch and moan about Sam/Jack all the damn time and have stopped watching since the end of season 8 but continue to whine, bitch and moan?
Yes they do hate you. We all do in fact :)
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You gotta check the new topic Jaka started: "If Jack were sterile or impotent, would Sam still want him?"
It seems like Jaka doesn't know the difference between impotence and sterility. He also says that Sam going out with Pete is basically the same thing as Sam being in a romantic relationship with Jack and then cheats on him because he couldn't get it up.
This kind of thing is the only reason I stay on the list. I'm so glad I found relatively sane people on LJ. : )
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That... just... no.
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Oh, I thought you meant spoilers for the finales tonight and I put off reading this till I'd seen'em. Or maybe those spoilers're farther down than I was able to read.
How solid is this spoiler that Sam's going to be seeing someone on SGA? Screen my comment and/or your answer if you must, but who is it? Thanks.
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Actually I'm of the she's-been-with-Jack-since-the-fishing school of
thoughthope.no subject
So much deja vu, dude. You could insert any fandom's batshit shippers here and get the same discussion. Actually, you could insert any ship within SG-1 fandom; I've seen it over and over on the Sam/Daniel list. Except there, of course, the "problem" is that RCC is so in love with his precious Sam/Jack that [blah blah wankcakes].
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I'm a Jack/Daniel shipper myself *ducks* - and, frankly, hearing J/S shippers bitch about how their ship is never recognized is... annoying. J/S is canon. No getting around that one.
And also... I'd have hated it if J/D had been canon. Actually, J/S being made canon was one of the reasons I abandoned that ship early on. I think too much canon in a ship tends to tie it up...