lyssie: (Teyla)
lyssie ([personal profile] lyssie) wrote2007-05-22 10:27 pm

Strong women...

[livejournal.com profile] thekatebeyond is doing a Week of Strong Women. I'm all for this. I like strong women. And I wrote this at work one day, after having re-watched Batman Begins...

Unfortunately, I don't remember if I've ever posted this. Whether I have or not, it still amuses me.

Contains spoilers for Batman Begins and Superman Returns

It had been a while since I'd seen it, and so I watched it, expecting Katie Holmes and her Damsel in Distress to wreck my feminine sensibilities.

Rachel Dawes is a cliche. Spoiled little rich girl, growing up with a crush on her best friend to become a prosecuting attorney that--

Wait. Hold the phone. Prosecuting attorney? Ok....

--is simpering and cute towards her True Love--

Must have missed that.

--and drives him to the worst part of town, tells him he's a stupid ass, kicks him out of her car, and drives off--

Whoa. So. Perhaps I'm missing something. Should she have been all dewy-eyed and "omg! You're a man! You're so right!" here?

--when he comes back into town, she's happy to see him. And still loves him.--

As we all know, the love of a good woman can change a man.

--But he pretty much brushes her off--

Poor thing.

--and she pines in a corner, and wastes away--

Missed that.

--and still does her job.

Wait, what? She doesn't immediately become a dithering, incapable pile of womanhood? But... But isn't that what rejected women are supposed to do? Oh, I'm so confused.

--Which includes confronting the skeevy Dr. Crane, realizing a little too late she was in danger, and having to be rescued.

It's not like she suspected he'd try to get rid of her. Suspecting someone is in the pay of the mob and might try to hurt you is NOT actually KNOWING they will. And as soon as she realized she was in danger, she tried to run. It's not her fault the man has a blower system for his drugs--even BATMAN got caught by them. Bruce just has more toys, and wasn't trapped in a god-damn basement.

--Once rescued, she foolishly goes back into danger, gets caught on the island, and nearly taken by scarecrow again--

Yup. It was stupid of her to go back, but she had the antidote, and she knew it was needed. And once there, she tried to get off before the gates closed, but she just wasn't fast enough. And then there was a kid to protect, and Scarecrow appeared, and what did she do? Did she stand and whimper until Superman came and saved her?

--whom she zatted.

Yes. She hit him in the god-damned face with a shock-gun. And when she had the chance, she took the gun from a cop, and was prepared to shoot a man who was menacing them. The only reason she didn't pull the trigger was Bruce saving them.

--And then she almost shot a guy, got stuck on a rooftop and figured out who Batman was.

She was not a helpless female. She didn't stand around, waiting to be rescued. When opportunity presented itself, she saved her own damned ass. Lois Lane would have stood there and whimpered until Superman saved her or her child threw a piano at someone.

--Now that she knew who Batman was, she simpered up at Bruce and told him, of course, her love would heal him forever. And then she married him. Or waited for him, pining in a corner, until he would realize his True Love for her.

HOLD THE PHONE. That didn't happen.

You know what happened? She told him she was sorry she'd been mean, but that he was too fucked in the head for her. And while she still kind of loved him, she wasn't up to dealing with his batshit. But, y'know, have a good life, Bruce.

And then she walked out of his life.

Katie Holmes wasn't awful. She was, in fact, damned decent as the Batman Girl. She wasn't sexed up, she wasn't pathetic, she didn't whine, or act indecisive. She was just a normal girl thrust into unusual circumstances who kept her head and kicked one hell of a lot of ass.

If she hadn't gone back to the island, Gordon would have been overcome by the gas, and Batman would have had to use a different plan. One which might not have worked.

[identity profile] thekatebeyond.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 04:19 am (UTC)(link)
*blinky*

You are so frakking right. I can't believe I never saw it that way! I'm so used to thinking of Katie Holmes as a girly, man-dependent person that I guess I never really looked at the character with clear eyes.

Wow. I think I like the movie even more now. That's kind of awesome!
ext_18106: (Jenna princess)

[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 04:52 am (UTC)(link)
I know when I first saw the movie I was really impressed that his Love Interest actually told him, "You're too screwed up for me, bye." I'm pretty sure I didn't have any problems with Katie Holmes' portrayal then, either. But it could just be that I've seen a lot of ranting since then (I think people are embarrassed to think she's ok as an actress because of teh batshittery with Cruise, which of course, she gets mocked for, being one of them Gullible Wimmins.)

...er.

Mostly, I just remember re-watching and going, "...dude. She just picked up a gun."

[identity profile] thekatebeyond.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 02:01 pm (UTC)(link)
I think all the controversy surrounding her real life draaahma was definitely a big part of what made me see the character inaccurately, but part of it is also that she managed to seem so girly and vulnerable while picking up a gun and zapping Crane. But that's, uhh, actually a really good thing, isn't it? It's more realistic than to have her laughing in the face of death.

*shakes head*

I seriously need to rewatch the movie now. I'm seeing it with new eyes.

[identity profile] lizardbeth-j.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 06:18 am (UTC)(link)
I wish Rachel had been played by someone else, because, yeah, poor Katie has a lot of baggage these days (I mostly feel sorry for her, and that doesn't help me watching her perform), but she did all right. I've never understood why anyone would rag on the character. The farewell scene is one of my favorites, because she does the smart thing and leaves; and Bruce looks after her a little wistfully and then carries on, proving her right. I hope Dark Knight is as good.

X-Men Last Stand was just on cable tonight -- a film I hate almost as much as I love Batman Begins, ironically enough.
ext_18106: (Athena Helo)

[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 06:31 am (UTC)(link)
It's the baggage. Honestly, she's not a bad actress... Luckily, I hear they're replacing her. Which is silly. Just create a new strong female character...

It's still got the same production crew, so I'm kinda crossing my fingers. *g*

Dude. Don't make me whip out 101 reasons why I loved that movie. ;) (yes, it has its problems, but, damn, at least it wasn't the "Logan is Cooler than Scott who is a Dweeb" movie the other two were)

[identity profile] lizardbeth-j.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 06:45 am (UTC)(link)
*rolls eyes* One Strong Female Character per Series allowed, apparently.

The spouse went to see it in the theaters by himself -- I'd already read all spoilers, so I was cranky and didn't want to go -- and he came out and said, "nope, you're not going to like it." When I finally did sit down and watch it, he was right. I sit there and stare at the Scott-shaped hole and FUME. Even half-naked Wolverines and very pretty Phoenix Fire FX are not enough to distract me.
ext_18106: (Default)

[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 06:49 am (UTC)(link)
You have Bryan Singer to thank for that. And he shafted him in Supes, too, so it's not like he had any better of a role.

[identity profile] lizardbeth-j.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 07:33 am (UTC)(link)
well, I blame the suits at Fox for cutting Marsden, and rushing the film out. And... well, pretty much everything come to think of it. If I hadn't gone into it with a pissy attitude I'd probably like it better, but it's all one thing in my head now.

I've not seen Superman Returns. I haven't heard anyone give a review of it that makes me want to rush and see it. it should be on cable soon.

(Dude, do you sleep? I'm going to bed late, and that means it much be WAY past your bedtime...)
ext_18106: (Helo)

[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 07:36 am (UTC)(link)
That, too. Sigh. Frakking Wolverine. *sulks*

Yeah. SR is... Rewatch Batman instead. Or Pirates. (omg. Pirates this week)

(I sleep! I would be sleeping, but I got distracted. And, er, If I were working right now, I'd be sleeping.)

[identity profile] petronelle.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 10:33 am (UTC)(link)
As an obsessive Batfan, I would have liked Rachel better if I hadn't kept expecting her to get hit in the face with a vial of acid. With that backstory, she was begging for it, and it distracted me.

On the other hand, a female Two-Face would have been fascinating.
ext_18106: (Default)

[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 05:21 pm (UTC)(link)
...dude. That would have been so awesome.

[identity profile] the-jackalope.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 02:19 pm (UTC)(link)
Yea, I liked Katie Holmes/Rachel Dawes. I think a lot of the backlash against the character had to do with what was going on in Katie Holmes' personal life. Which is kinda sad.
ext_18106: (Default)

[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 05:24 pm (UTC)(link)
I know I remember being surprised that she did stuff in the movie, since reviews I'd seen had been all rage-ful about the lack of female characters. (which is true, except for Rachel, most of the women really don't do anything but stand around and look pretty)

Re: Holmes

[identity profile] kkglinka.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 02:23 pm (UTC)(link)
I mostly just didn't like when she was being used as cipher/plot device to cue Bruce into doing things. The part when she dumped him for being a screwed up asshat was great. Truth is, I just wasn't interested in the friend/love interest plot in this movie; it was too early in the mythos for me, distracting. Possibly because there was so little Batman in the movie to begin with, so in a later movie where there's plenty of Batman, a distracting love interest who sometimes acts as plot device to move things forward would be entertaining. Hopefully, there will also be more than one token female character forced to represent several women at the same time.
ext_18106: (Default)

Re: Holmes

[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 05:27 pm (UTC)(link)
This is true. I was reminded, actually, that except for Rachel, I don't think a single woman was given a name in the movie (well, Bruce's mommy, maybe). And I was irritated by that. But then again, I wasn't expecting women in a Batman movie to be anything but screaming damsels.
ext_5608: (you were saying)

[identity profile] wiliqueen.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 03:28 pm (UTC)(link)
THANK YOU!!!! Everybody was so determinedly slurping down that particular koolaid when the movie came out, I just threw up my hands and said "screw it."

She was just a normal girl thrust into unusual circumstances

And y'know, this is true of a lot of female characters who get extremely short shrift from feminist genre fans. I'm so fucking sick of people paying zero attention to characters who are "just the girlfriend." Guess what? They're usually not. They're dealing with all this shit without the resources of the superhero. And I would estimate that, a good 75 - 80% of the time, they're dealing with it pretty damn well.
ext_18106: (Default)

[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 05:30 pm (UTC)(link)
For some reason, I'm wanting to say, "everything comes back to Mary Jane" Because you're right. The love interest/SO/female antagonist is usually 100% normal thrust into a world where she has no super powers.

But, no, that isn't enough for the female fans. The girl/woman must be everything to everyone. She must be the everywoman, must espouse every idealogy they require and etc. (I think this should be called Sam Carter Syndrome, really--which I guess means, in the end, that it all comes back to Sam. *g*)

Now, if they'd just start putting more women in movies, I'd like to think less people would complain. (and yet, no one loves Tank Girl)
ext_5608: (you were saying)

[identity profile] wiliqueen.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 06:47 pm (UTC)(link)
I need to link to this post. Except first I have to figure out how to work in mention of the fact that I appear to be the only person on the planet who thinks Chase Masterson is Harley Quinn waiting to happen. Not that it saves her from being overall a big bland waste of Nicole Kidman, but still.
ext_5608: (facepalm)

[identity profile] wiliqueen.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 06:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Errrrrr... Chase Meridian. Chase Masterson being another (REAL) person entirely...
ext_18106: (Kara the bitch)

[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 06:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, actually, Chase Masterson would make an awesome Harley Quinn, though. Seriously, she's got the right pixie-ish qualities, and I bet she could totally pull off the scary psycho-ness (she's got the right voice, too).

Which is mostly me trying not to say I don't remember Chase Meridian, except since you mention Nicole, I'm guessing she was the hot redhead from, um, Batman Forever?
ext_5608: (Default)

[identity profile] wiliqueen.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 07:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, that was a kind of fortuitous typo wasn't it?

I'm guessing she was the hot redhead from, um, Batman Forever?

Except that she was blonde. But yeah. I started out thinking "Y'know, they could have really gone somewhere with this shrink/profiler chick who's a little too fascinated by what makes the bad guys tick." And then realized that if it went anywhere, it would pretty much be to Harley.
(deleted comment)
ext_18106: (Dayna)

[identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com 2007-05-23 09:40 pm (UTC)(link)
I wish. Because for every Rachel Dawes, there are ten Lois Lanes. (Superman Returns was NOT a movie for strong female characters) And don't get me started on the marginalization (not to mention demonization) of the women on BSG this past season.