lyssie | Ramblings after midnight.

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Ramblings after midnight.

When watching old episodes of Buffy, one should probably not mock them for their obvious allegory properties. Sadly, by the third season, I am personally TIRED of the "High school is Hell which equals life. And Life is Hell." message that keeps getting slammed into peoples' faces.

To top it off, I personally thought Buffy taking off to LA was healthy. Far healthier than staying around for her friends' fake sympathy after she'd killed th man she loved to save the world.

Re-watching 'Anne', one is supposed to believe that, for the THIRD TIME, Buffy needs to reaffirm herself as the Slayer. That she has 'been running' and 'afraid' of her Destiny... Yeah. Not like she hasn't been grieving for the man (vampire, whatever) she killed. Y'know, grieving? Perfectly normal process of the human psyche? That thing they tell you you're supposed to do when people die?

Arrr.

I think part of it was watching the end of 'Becoming', and realizing that the show could have ended there... and I would have been perfectly happy. And also remembering that I was planning to bring Angel back in The Slayer, the Cat and Some Wisdom, BEFORE season three ever began playing. And as this was in the age before rampant spoilers, I had no idea they were going to bring him back in... well, no the exact way I did. I used the Hellmouth and had him stuck there in a freaky dimensional rift way. And Kitty jumped in and phased him out....

Sigh. I should finish that stupid fic.

I should also finish the Cordelia stuck in Faith's body fic.

Actually, I should finish a lot of fic. And do the dishes tomorrow.

Hrm. I was going to ramble abount femslash, too. *goes to find notes*

Femslash.

Some people hate that term. Personally, at this point, I like being able to differentiate. Because boyslash is two men having sex. And femslash is two women having sex.

Why write femslash? It's fun, it's amusing, it's hot. Women have just as many problems as men and women and men and men. Exploring those isn't always what it's about -- mostly, it's just about the sex.

Does this make you a lesbian? Probably not. Ask me again when I've had a little more practical experience and a little less theoretical.

Two women having sex is sexist! Er. It is? I was under the impression that boyslash, which is all about the penis, was much more sexist, since you rarely see women represented in the stories in any decent light. Actually, I've always thought femslash was a great tribute to women.

Seriously. I find it hot. I find it erotic. I find it slightly easier to write, because I have the correct genitalia, and don't have to mess around with a penis.

Femslash is just imagining yourself having sex with one of the characters. Yup. But at least it's less pathetic than thinking I'm a man having sex with another man.

And, random silly links to old entries...
Me, on writing songfic for SG-1: http://www.livejournal.com/users/lyssie/323840.html
A.j. and I, on Heros, and Janet: http://www.livejournal.com/users/lyssie/324645.html
Threads' spoilers: Fanon becomes canon: http://www.livejournal.com/users/lyssie/330310.html - What you want is Acey's comments.
RP log between Sam, Jack, Domino, etc: http://www.livejournal.com/users/lyssie/345861.html - notable for Domino mocking Sam and Jack, and poor Ryuu getting caught in the crossfire. This log also contains one of the first references to the storage closet on level 19.

hrm....

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Femslash is just imagining yourself having sex with one of the characters. Yup. But at least it's less pathetic than thinking I'm a man having sex with another man.

It's so much fun when you can fit two characters in one femslash pairing and imagine yourself having sex with either of them depending on your mood. Or both. Or just be a voyeur. *cackles*

I thought the whole point of boyslash was that the female author wants to write something hot without actually writing herself into the scene. ;)

Sadly, by the third season, I am personally TIRED of the "High school is Hell which equals life. And Life is Hell." message that keeps getting slammed into peoples' faces.

Word. Like, Joss, we GET IT. And STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT YOUR LIFE, YOU RICH POSH-EDUCATED STRAIGHT WHITE MAN.

Re-watching 'Anne', one is supposed to believe that, for the THIRD TIME, Buffy needs to reaffirm herself as the Slayer.

How the fuck many times did she do that anyway?

I was under the impression that boyslash, which is all about the penis, was much more sexist, since you rarely see women represented in the stories in any decent light. Actually, I've always thought femslash was a great tribute to women.

I think when it's women writing then boyslash is more Inherentlt Sexist than femslash is.

Ha. How I wish. No, no. It's all about how man-on-man love is so much more pure and beautiful without those damned women involved. I swear, slashers are like anti-feminists. Someone should set about getting them all barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen so we don't have th hear all the whining...

*ARE* there any gay (or straight) male slash writers? I'm thinking.... not. I know there are lesbian/bi femslash writers, because I'm friends with a few. But I'm thinking there is probably little to no male-written ficporn, period...

Apparently there are. They get fangirled a lot, like that guy who puts up porn pictures of men fucking so we would all Understand and Write Well.

Huh. Well, I suppose there are Exceptions to every rule. Unless they are really women pretending to be men omg! ;)

Sometimes it turns out that THEY ARE!

We should start requiering Proof of Penis.

Nuts. I'm going about it all wrong, then. ^^;

I read something that was written thirty-odd years ago about Star Trek slash... this writer was saying that in male/male fic, the writer doesn't have to worry about gender-based stereotypes. When I read that I thought that was stupid... if you want to write a relationship that doesn't have a strong protective manlyman and a swooning vapid woman, write it!

But when I was old enough that I didn't have to be sneaky about reading such stories, I realised what she was talking about. It came about in the context of hurt/comfort stories. If you write a story where a male character is suffering and a female character is caring for him, you have a woman-as-caretaker story. Substitute mother, Beverly Crusher, Wendy-lady. But if the woman is hurting and the man cares for her, she's weak and needs to be protected, and he's heroic for doing it.

So my theory is that even though I'm straight, I write same-sex because I can avoid the double standards. I'd like to write an opposite-sex couple in a way that doesn't feed stereotypes, but I'm not ambitious enough yet. That'll be a big serious writing project, and probably not for fanfic.

The corollary to that is that boyslash or girlslash both meet the criteria, because you don't have the male/female dynamic in play. But I write boys because I get too wrapped up in writing girls. Writing boyslash is sort of the easy-and-fun way for a straight girl to write romance or sex. Not too stressful or personal.

Huh. Well, I guess we're just worlds apart on how we see things...

Because I don't see why it's not possible to write a male/female paring with Emotional Difficulties (I'm sorry, I hate the term hurt/comfort. It's a made-up fic category...) but this may be more an issue with the pairings I tend to choose as far as fandoms go--the women tend to be strong, almost to a fault (see: John and Aeryn in Farscape for a good example--their gender roles are so far from the norm they've almost swapped places).

It is possible to do, and it *isn't* that hard. The characters do what you make them, essentially (and we could get into debates about where that takes them *out* of character, depending on who it is, but I'd argue making canonically straight characters gay is as much of a departure, so...)

The other thing I'd have to argue is that, at least in the vast majority of the slash fic I've read, one of the male characters ends up being 'feminized' anyway. So all that's really happened is that someone's traded out a cunt for a cock (excuse my language... I liked the alliteration ;) ) and the stereotypes remain largely intact.

Now, if it were actually *written* equally I could probably understand it to a larger extent (even if I would continue to suspect that a lot of them write it because they think it's cute.) But it's not. One of the men takes over the stereotypically 'female' role anyway, so what's left is two character who are gay because the writer would rather have two penises in the story.

I guess perhaps the 'writer's comfort' sentiment is the only thing I can believe, but what does it say about society if women are that uncomfortable about their own bodies, anyway?

(And, as a side note, I've nothing against slash... there's a very nearly canon relationship between two male characters in my comics fandom I'm quite fond of.)

Ah, gay Utopia.

I really don't... Well, actually, I guess I do understand why people allow others' preconceived stereotypes to force them to write like that.

Personally, I don't.

Well, I assume I don't. I haven't actually gotten feedback from people saying, "Wow! Female character works so well as this stereotype! And Male character B is *such* a MALE."

You put into your fic what you want, and let others take what they may. If you want to write a het pairing as non-stereotypical, do so. Just because others say that they HAVE TO BE like romance novel caricatures doesn't mean they are!

I seriously have issues with people who think that if you have two men there aren't any gender issues at all. And I need to go hunting through nos' lj, 'cause she had a post about that, once.

The same goes for two women.

And if I never read a slash story written by a woman that contains a woman acting like the fucking 'gender stereotypes' that are out there again, I will... have stopped reading slash. Which I don't do all that often, because two men having sex bores me.

(I'm wishing I could remember what the few gay guys I know have said about slash. Something along the lines of "It's too touchy-feelie." iirc)

And... apparently I don't invest as much into my pairings and porn, because I've never considered it un-easy and fun to write. But, kinks vary, I suppose.

...no. Because every slash story I've read, one of the characters is the author with a dick.

*g* Exactly. At least we don't go around pretending it's not all about having sex with one of the characters... ;)

Like, Joss, we GET IT. And STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT YOUR LIFE, YOU RICH POSH-EDUCATED STRAIGHT WHITE MAN.

*dies* Indeed, though. I mean, come ON. His life is NOT THAT HARD! He's writing tv, for fuck's sake! Something that some of us would be better at! If, say, we had the connections he obviously does... I wonder if he knows Grant Morrisson's cocaine dealer...

How the fuck many times did she do that anyway?

Beginning of every season, and at least twice during the season, if not more. (Prophecy Girl, When She Was Bad, What's My Line?, Anne....)

I think when it's women writing then boyslash is more Inherentlt Sexist than femslash is.

Word. I wish they'd all just admit it's because they think women are weak, and then fucking kill themselves so the rest of us have a better chance of perpetuating intelligence.

I don't know. I kinda like the idea of them together too. The prettiness and not to mention the hotness of it all. And they're so cute...

Aren't I good that I'm resisting a cheap and sick joke about whether he knew Glenn Quinn's coke dealer?

Yes. Yes you are. *sniggers madly*

Just out of curiosity, what the Hell is that supposed to mean?

...

That I think Morrisson is on drugs and has been for a very long time?

Well, there is that, too.

*wants to say something profound, but really just wants to read/write femslash, omg*

But here's .02 cents -- SLASH is different from FEMSLASH, so shut up, people. Slash is a way of life, it seems, and a very angsty position that people take against het shippers. It's male/male. La. Femslash is more of a fun deviation and/or a way of life. And gay sex is totally different for the two genders, yo. *has gay vs. lesbian vs. bi angst, omg*

... *has nothing more profound to say*

Heh.

*is generally useless*

Bah. Of course, I'm just generally... mocking of maleslash.

*has crazy de ja vu and clings*

I mock too often?

Sigh.

Kitty Pryde and Starbuck are taunting Remy LeBeau with sexual depravity. Hrm...

Good points. Yeah, we can all write what we want to write. I do want to write it, but I don't think I'm good enough yet to do it. But nobody has to write a gay couple with one as 'the man' and one as 'the woman' either.

Hurt/comfort is of course a made-up genre for fanfiction. There are some very good reasons for it. If you've got a university library nearby, see if you can find a book called Enterprising Women, and read the chapter called 'Suffering and Solace: The Genre of Pain'.

I'm not sure how this ties into a woman writer's discomfort with her own body.

And one last thing-- do we define a fandom or a genre by the idiot majority, or by the best and brightest and the people in it who actually have good ideas? I think there are some very good and socially valid and healthy reasons for all this stuff that we write. Not everybody does it for healthy reasons, but the good reasons do exist even if most of the fic is crap. ^^

You put into your fic what you want, and let others take what they may. If you want to write a het pairing as non-stereotypical, do so. Just because others say that they HAVE TO BE like romance novel caricatures doesn't mean they are!

See, it's really weird. That's exactly what I thought the first time I read what I just told you. But when I started trying to write it, maybe it was my own cynicism getting in the way, or my ability to see the work in the worst possible light, that made me think 'this is such a stereotype'.

The problem is that it's not 'wrong' or 'shameful' for a woman to comfort and support someone, or for a man to protect someone. It's just that they're overused cliches in fiction already. Writing those situations and not having them come out as cliches is what I'm finding to be hard.

Granted, writing same-sex couples has its own set of cliches. But since I'm not as familiar with them I don't feel boxed in by them.

I'll make a disclaimer here that I've never put any of these stories out in public, and many of them have never even seen paper or word processor. Or been typed and then deleted. I don't feel good enough at any of it to actually let other people read it. These are just my thoughts on why I'm interested in writing it, not the ramblings of a skilled writer.

But nobody has to write a gay couple with one as 'the man' and one as 'the woman' either.

Of course not. I was just pointing out that that's what the majority of slash was about, and in that case, you can't say there are no stereotypes, because it's hardly gender-equal, even if they do both have boy bits.

Hurt/comfort is of course a made-up genre for fanfiction. There are some very good reasons for it. If you've got a university library nearby, see if you can find a book called Enterprising Women, and read the chapter called 'Suffering and Solace: The Genre of Pain'.

Why do I get a feeling that thing would encourage me to read a lot of Bronte-written fic? ;) I'm not denying it exists, just that in fanfic, it tends to be one of those catch-all categories many, many people use when they can't be arsed to come up with an actual plot. It's like saying a fic is 'fluff' of 'pwp' occasionally nice, but not terribly satisfying from a literary standpoint.

I'm not sure how this ties into a woman writer's discomfort with her own body.

If you feel more comfortable about writing sex with (essentially) sexual organs you do not own than you do about those you *do*? Well... I think some people have issues. Also, a lot of slashers seem to have this 'girly bits are icky!' mindset which worries me given that most of them are attached to a set of said girly bits.

And one last thing-- do we define a fandom or a genre by the idiot majority, or by the best and brightest and the people in it who actually have good ideas?

I do judge it by the majority. Like it or not, the majority *does* represent the fandom. There may be exceptions who do a much better job with their craft, but they are, by definition, exceptions. It may be irksome to the minority who do care about their writing, but as far as I know, the face of slash hasn't suddenly *become* vapid, it's always been that way.

That bit up there about the Brontes should be 'books.' Get to talking about fic and your brain goes on auto-pilot...

By this logic, writing in general isn't worthwhile, because most people who try to do it suck. Look at any publisher's slushpile.

Everybody loves to hate feminists and vegetarians, even though it's a minority that actually hates men or throws red paint on people eating hamburgers. We see the worst in any group-- majority or minority-- and define them by that. Personally, I don't see how crap-coloured glasses are any smarter or more logical a thing to wear than rose-coloured ones.

Writing, whether it's fiction or opinions or the product of research, is a noble thing to do. It takes practice to do it well, and a thick skin to be able to improve. I think it's one of the best things that humanity has ever invented. The only difference between fanwriting and any other kind of writing is that you can't get paid for it.

Okay, you know what? I give up. It's obvious you've got no intention of actually debating my original point with me, and I've no desire to follow this off on whatever tangent you feel like taking up. If you want to get back to what I was talking about in the first place: IE, the fact that gender-equality doesn't exist in 90% of the slash out there, then fine. If not, I'm done.

Buh? I'm not disagreeing with you on that. 90% of everything is crap, yes. Slash included.

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Ramblings after midnight.

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