If you're going to say things like, "no one's producing anything but Adama/Roslin in BSG fandom anymore" it might be a good idea to check your fucking facts. Or at least acknowledge that you're not reading anything else, either.
And my answer to statements like that is usually, "If you want a 30,000 word Doc Cottle/Baltar AU epic that takes place at King Arthur's Court, by all means get writing it. I'll probably read it if it's good."
Although I do have to say that BSG seems balkanized in ways I never experienced in X-Files fandom. Now, granted, in XF fandom, 90% of fans are Mulder/Scully fans so it makes things easier and more cohesive(plus having way fewer characters on the show), but still, I found it very interesting to see the difference between xf_pornbattle and bsg_pornbattle. It seemed to me that the XF fans gave a lot more cross-pairing feedback. In other words, Mulder/Scully fans would comment on Scully/Kryeck fic, and Scully/Skinner fans would squee over Mulder/Krycek stories, etc. I didn't see as much of that for the BSG version. The Kara/Lee shippers clumped over here and the Adama/Roslin fans were over there and so on. Perhaps it's a factor of the fandom being bigger. XF fandom is fairly small these days, which blows my mind because when I first got involved with it, it was the Internet fandom. But everyone pretty much knows everyone else in XF fandom, which may lead to a greater willingness to read porn not featuring one's OTP.
Well, I know I've said that they aren't slowing down, but I don't think they're the only ones writing anything. It might be more obvious how much they write now? Especially since I know there've been some big Laura challenges going on.
I believe you may be referring to my post about fan production post-finale and the discussion in the comments. The original post was, mostly, about vidding and I acknowledged I knew less about levels of fic production.
The discussion about the A/R fic production in that post was more to do with the way they are the group of fans that has continued to produce the most quite possibly because they are one of the most satisfied groups of fans in terms of the finale. Obviously that is a broad statement but I think the overwhelming popularity of the ship on the_wireless at least backs up that it is a broad trend.
I'm also guessing that you're referring to the fact that there are still a fair number of Kara/Sam (among other) stories being produced. This is true and perhaps the discussion was remiss in not mentioning that - perhaps for similar reasons to the A/R shippers - K/S shippers were generally fairly surprised and pleased with at least that aspect of the finale. Again I am making broad statements that obviously aren't going to reflect everyone's response and also I am not really present in most of the K/S scene (though again, see original disclaimer that fic is not my area of expertise).
Ultimately, the point of that post, before discussion dragged off into other areas, was that fan production, with certain exceptions, seems to have slowed down more rapidly than I have seen in other closed canon fandoms and I was wondering whether that had to do with the wide levels of unhappiness with the finale within the LJ community.
I do still stand by the basic idea that A/R stories are the most prolific currently. I also think that if anyone in the discussion on my journal said that no one was producing anything but A/R fiction it was almost certainly supposed to be taken as indicative of a trend rather than some literal decree. If you are instead responding to the negative tone in parts of the discussion then I'm happy to admit that yes, there was venting and a lot of frustration once the topic was brought up. I will say that I see two subtle distinctions of issue here - talking about A/R and its levels of production in fandom and why that might be / frustration at the way A/R was portrayed in 4.5 in general. The two issues bled into each other because there is a lot of overlap and I also think that frustration is a very reasonable response to A/R in 4.5 and something worth discussing/being allowed to vent about. (Note: I have no idea what your views on A/R are, you may love it or dislike it as much as I do, I'm simply trying to be comprehensive in my response as I feel responsible for this post and would like to defuse the situation, and the best way I know how to do that is to be honest and, hopefully, informative.)
If this was in response to the discussion on my journal, I admit to being both worried and confused that you seem so upset by it.
If this was not in response to the discussion on my journal, I apologise.
It's hard to read something and realize everything you've been producing is being dismissed.
And I am certainly not the only one still producing fic (I'm sure the femslashers would be confused to find out they're being labeled A/R shippers).
Sure, the wireless is full of it more than everything else, because they've been on top for months and months. And before that, it was Kara/Lee. I don't exactly see how there's any difference. We just traded one OTP What Ate Fandom for another.
A lot of my thoughts on the finale are entirely depressing--for instance, if I think about the fact that the end-point for every major female character was death, I start kicking things. Writing fic is less painful and far more cathartic.
It probably more ff.net is dead right now and my summary sucks. Also I don't think you should put a lot of stock in the people in these comments maybe I'm biased but it looked the usual "Starpollo is so oppressed since RDM didn't do things our way" crap I don't put much stock in it. If anything pyramid of dreams has been producing more fic since the finale because MerryK has hit her stride and karatekat has joined us as well.
Being fairly new to the fandom, I don't really have a good idea about what it was like when K/L ruled all. So my perspective is a little different in that I tend to notice the A/R more. Which is fine, since anyone can write/vid/fanmix/etc what they want, though I definitely don't mean to come across as whining about it. I'm just a little baffled.
And the K/S output has been pretty fantastic lately in proportion, so yeah the point's taken. All I can think of there is that I just expect the total to be a lot less generally since there's fewer writers. Much as I'm grateful for the amazing ones we do have. :) Since I tend to skim broadly through fic communities, I'm sure there are some great places that I just don't follow with high output too.
If I'm not mistaken, I think most of the people who commented on that post (except for Becca) used to ship A/R and write A/R fic (or vid them), up until the massive gender fail of 4.5 So it's not about being anti-A/R, just, massively sexist A/R. And to be totally fair, can you imagine how we'd feel if Kara had spent the entire season doing nothing but coughing and smiling sweetly at Lee, saying that flying a viper and being a hero really meant nothing to her, because she'd never really been at home until she won his love, getting her act together to save the fleet once but only because of *swoon* Lee, and basically being irrelevant because their whole relationship was told from his perspective? And if almost the only significant thing she'd done all season apart from the aforementioned was chase a toddler for 3 seconds? And then the majority (?) of K/L fandom ate it up and wrote reams of fic glorifying the bastardization of her character? I mean, personally, I think I'd be doing some ranting. And possibly some torching of RDM's car. ;) (Of all the sexist bullshit that happened in season 4, Roslin's loss of self is the only one that really still shocks me. I always thought she'd be exempt because of, um, ageism.)
I know for my part, Becca's post struck a cord because I have noticed that collecting Gnews posts has become much easier since there's been such a drop-off of meta. Which is not to say that what there is isn't wonderful and appreciated - but it was a little distressing to hear that this isn't the way things normally go with a closed canon. It's my first fandom so I had no idea. So it's not so much feeling that the fandom has died as fearing that it might soon. And I'm not ready yet! I just got back, dammit!
I think most of us in the Kara/Sam community have something of a complex about being forgotten by everybody else since it seems to happen so often. I don't think there was anything necessarily offensive in your post specifically, it was more what wasn't there both in your post and the comments below. We are a not a large group it would seem if you go to certain places in this fandom and your post and its commentators seemed to disregard us and our contribution completely. I realize you probably didn't do this maliciously but I can't be certain about everyone in those comments(especially since I only know half of them).
We just traded one OTP What Ate Fandom for another.
And I find it interesting that it switched and interesting that this is the one now eating fandom and interesting that pretty much alone of all the other areas of fandom it's not suffering from post-finale atrophication. I apologise if you feel I wrongly left out Kara/Sam in this, as I said, the reason is that I wasn't focusing on fic and the people commenting had some strong feelings about this particular area of fic as very eloquently expressed by prolix_allie.
I disagree that this is somehow marginalising your production just because some people chose to discuss a different issue, which is as much about WHY A/R remains so popular despite many questionable choices in the second half of S4.
I am completely confused as to why you'd read something that's clearly talking about the large production levels of one area of fandom and the gender politics therein and read into it a completely absolute assertion that everyone else has shut up. It's about large trends and I still stand by my assertion that A/R is trending up under fairly unusual broad fandom circumstances.
It if helps, I am an actual Kara/Sam SHIPPER and am still producing both occasional fic (nearly always gen, and I have never been a huge writer of it anyway) and video content myself. In fact my post-finale epic vid project had among its goals to showcase aspects of the K/S relationship and I have a Sam, Kara/Sam music vid I'm going to be making (I think it's third on my vidding waiting list currently). So...I'm not here ignoring or unaware of the relationship.
I just think it's valid to hold discussions that aren't really about it, marginalising it or glorifying it, either. It's great that it's still a vital part of fandom. BELIEVE ME I'm happy about that, as I said in my original comment, I actually think that perhaps one of the reasons K/S hasn't been as badly affected is because like A/R (although fortunately not like it in the genderfail aspect), K/S were one of the few people to get an ending the fans were, more-or-less, content with, and yes, that is an interesting discussion to have too. But as I also said, there were two discussions with some overlap going on in that entry. The generic, non-specific, mostly vid-focused discussion about fan production, and then the personal-feelings-fuelled, disappointed-with, (these-days-)anti-A/R shipper discussion about why it's still so popular.
It was about my friends feelings about Laura Roslin. Not their dismissal of Kara and Sam. The statement that no one was producing anything was clearly hyperbolic and again, tied into the upset pertaining to Laura's treatment. So unless it's offensive to ever have a discussion that doesn't mention all aspects of fandom in perfect equality, I'm again, sorry you were offended but think that you're taking the discussion out of context.
If it helps, while I am not in the K/S community much because I'm not big in fic production, I AM a Kara/Sam shipper, I pretty much always have been, I have a K/S vid in the works, it's one of my favourite unexpected things the show did and my big epic post-finale vid project had among its goals to showcase and validate that relationship.
Perhaps this is part of why I am so confused by the sudden assumption that I'm marginalising it and ignoring it.
As I said above, it was ignored in my post because my post was mainly about vidding and then there was the overlapping and related topic of A/R itself because I have a number of huge Laura Roslin fans and disgruntled ex-A/R shippers on my flist. The discussion became a safe place to talk about their profound disappointment with the storyline and confusion on the way others embraced it.
It was ABOUT that, it wasn't NOT about K/S.
I seriously doubt we'd be happy in a world where every fandom discussion had to develop in such a way as to provide perfect equality to all aspects of every fandom.
As someone who DOES consider myself a part of the K/S community (though a low output member) and someone who did briefly mention A/R output in that post, I'm a little confused by the assumption of malice. Others have said it better, but I read it mostly as a side discussion dealing with the confusion and anger at the show's choices and the ramifications in fandom.
Personally, I mentioned it because I have noticed an upswing in A/R production that isn't matched in the larger fandom. And this isn't necessarily the entire truth, but also something I notice more now since I was generally unhappy with that storyline and am baffled by most of A/R in general. So, yes, it's a simplification on my part because of personal blinders, but also never meant to be about K/S or any other fic community and certainly not about marginalizing them. I don't think mentioning or having a discussion about the elevation of one pairing in the fandom takes away from all other pairings, not A/R or when it was K/L in the spotlight. I'm extremely grateful for all of the wonderful K/S writers since it IS such a small of the fandom and the group that got me into this whole thing anyway.
Ahhhh. See, my reading comprehension was apparently faulty yesterday. You mean Sturgeon's Law has descended with a vengeance upon your corner of fandom.
I can think of another instance that this happened towards the end/finale of a series (ok, so season eight wasn't the entire end, but it put the kibosh on one era). Stargate: SG-1. Atthe close of season eight, there was quite a lot of new, and incredibly bad, fic.
Not that the Sam/Jack section was hurting for bad fic before then. But it seemed like the good stuff had slowed to a trickle, and therefore, the bad stuff swamped everything.
Me, I'm of two minds.
On the one hand, I sort of wish there was that sort of volume in Kara/Sam (or Sam Carter/Kara Thrace or any of the femslash pairings, for that matter). Even if it meant wading through the drek of fluffy, awful babyfic and "Sam Claims Kara" near-rape fic.
On the other, I can live without that.
....still on another, I have entirely lost the thread of what I'd started to say. *facepalm*
And I find it interesting that it switched and interesting that this is the one now eating fandom and interesting that pretty much alone of all the other areas of fandom it's not suffering from post-finale atrophication.
I think femslash production is actually UP since the show ended, but the femslashers have never needed the confirmation of canon (and never expected it)--
I think the Roslin/Adama production is up precisely because it was acknowledged as canon--sure, you had a lot of people who shipped it beforehand, and some casual shippers. But there's still a LOT of people who do not ship non-canon. With it canon, that section are exploding with fic.
And unfortunately, the more fic you have, the easier it is to find bad fic. This is true fandom-wide (just ask the Kara/Lee shippers who were complaining about a year and a half ago about where all the good fic had gone).
Now. The Kara/Lee fic has been steadily declining for over a year due to lack of interaction on-screen. Kara's end sort of kicked some of them back into gear, but it's really hard to recover from Ron stringing them along to no purpose. (now I expect an immense cavalcade of fic. sigh)
There's probably another thesis in there, somewhere, relating to canon's closure and the... domesticity? of that closure in regards to whether people are writing further fic on their favorite pairing (I think it applies to canon as it was being produced, as well. Look at how Athena/Helo production dropped sharply once they weren't a focal point of the narrative--that's an observation, not actual statistics and data, though)
In closing, be glad you didn't name the pairing something ridiculous, like Sparky.
And to be totally fair, can you imagine how we'd feel if Kara had spent the entire season doing nothing but coughing and smiling sweetly at Lee, saying that flying a viper and being a hero really meant nothing to her, because she'd never really been at home until she won his love, getting her act together to save the fleet once but only because of *swoon* Lee, and basically being irrelevant because their whole relationship was told from his perspective?
I think Katee would have punched Ron.
I can't see Kara doing that for Sam, either.
As for the closing of canon, I think... I think a lot of it really has to do with the fact that Ron's ending was, in some ways, utter crap.
For me, of course, it just produces crack ideas and etc. And I know Rose has had two massive post-settlement fics.
Yes. Or at the very least, dropped a few f-bombs in his general direction. WHY DIDN'T MARY PUNCH RON, LYSSIE? D:
I can't see Kara doing that for Sam, either.
No, and while I probably would have liked it at first? If that had been the sum total of her final arc I'd be furious.
... Although, even trying to imagine it, with any man, is sort of hilarious.
I've talked to some people who even liked the ending and still say they've lost the urge to write or even read about the characters who've died, because their stories are finished. So maybe it's also that the end was so ... there was nowhere to go from it, even for the characters who lived.
Clearly I just need to jump on the afterlife fic wagon. ;)
I don't know. Mary not objecting makes me sad, though I wonder if they sold it to her in some way. (also, Roslin's arc makes me want to hit things, but in general large portions of season 4 cause that reaction)
If that had been the sum total of her final arc I'd be furious.
Yup. And I am furious about it, for Roslin, for Caprica, for Ellen... the list goes on, unfortunately. :/
For Felix Gaeta, who isn't even getting his backstory on the damned dvds (dead Eights or not).
Clearly I just need to jump on the afterlife fic wagon. ;)
OBVIOUSLY.
(also, yes. Stories ended, and there was... no place to add more?)
I am fairly new to this fandom and I don't know everyone but I do know their are those out there who would use something like this to act maliciously towards Kara/Sam fans. I'm not even saying that anyone there was doing that, it's just that I don't trust some of these people motivations enough, to say they're not with any certainty. I am simply trying to explain why I feel slighted, since it was also the bulk of my writing swept aside.
I did say I don't think you did it deliberately but you did dismiss a good part of the fandom(since you dismissed others as well we're just the ones bitching). Much in the same way I think RDM and Co. didn't realize they dun killed all the women just because you didn't intend it to be dismissive doesn't make it right. I as I said below I am simply trying to explain my feelings and point out that perhaps you might want to be more inclusive in future. Your posts did contain several broad statements and I think you've seen here how quickly those become ammunition. (Personally I try to avoid broad statements altogether, they always seem to bring trouble)
Okay, so I basically agree with a lot of the points you're making re: canon shipping, etc. and how that encourages production, which is probably as true for K/S as A/R.
But really, I'm not sure this comment has much to do with the original post which - despite the context you have put it into with this post - was never really about which parts of fandom were trending up or down. It was about how fandom as a whole, and from my observations, vidding in particular, was slowing at a rate faster than previous fandoms had after the end of canon, regardless of any specific uptick in any sub-sections of fandom. It was also not really about quality vs quantity, just straight up broad-based quantity.
So yeah, "K/S is trending up because the finale canonised it," is a great and useful observation. But I don't feel it negates any of the rest of the discussion about fandom in general since the discussion I was trying to have is about something that's true regardless of whether K/S is trending up or down? Even though I'm glad it's trending up? Or is at least stable?
As a subthread of that discussion, we started talking about A/R fic production and how the increase in that suggested a lot of fandom wasn't bothered by the things we were bothered by. I've actually gone back to check the post for the sake of clarity and of the 45 comments there about 9 or so of them touch on A/R one way or the other while the rest are primarily about vidding or other areas of production. Of those 9, I cannot actually find any of them talking about how A/R are the only people still making stuff, all I can find is various statements about how A/R are monolithically HUGE in fandom right now. So I'm actually uncertain as to which bit you even found upsetting.
Finally one thing which might not have been clear from the post is that while I do not want fandom to die, I wasn't actually desperately asking other people to fix this for me and make more. I agree with all the posters above that the best thing to do in that situation is get out there and fix it yourself and while it makes me sad, my response to my perception that fandom is slowly dying is to be, well, productive about it.
But I did find it interesting, a little sad, and wondered if anyone else had noticed it too. Hence, the post.
Yes, clearly choosing to discuss how a generally true topic affects the things you know about most is dismissing all the things you're not so familiar with. I can completely see how it was impossible for anyone with more varied knowledge to post on a public post, where I explicitly say in the post that I do not have great knowledge of certain areas, so that people could INFORM ME.
I do wonder if you've actually read through the post since I a) say at the start that since I'm not so aware of fic issues, I'm mostly bringing to the discussion my knowledge of vids and b) A/R discussion comprises less than a quarter of the comments, is clearly a sub-discussion that someone started by, you know, as mentioned above commenting and bringing that discussion to the table, and c) I still can't actually FIND anyone saying that no one is making anything but A/R. All I can find are various statements saying that there IS a crapload of A/R and various people's feelings on that. And, well...there's a crapload of A/R.
I think using a broad statement as ammunition is pretty ridiculous when the person acknowledges it's a broad statement because they want to talk about broad trends, despite statistical anomalies, however wonderful and creative those anomalies might be (and in view of wider fandom, even the monolithic A/R is an anomaly, if you were about to assume I was somehow dismissing one of my own favourite ships again).
Discussing broad trends is absolutely a valid thing to do. And I imagine you'd probably be pretty annoyed if you were having a dicussion about Kara/Sam in your journal and a bunch of Laura/Lee shippers took offence because you started comparing/contrasting with Kara/Lee.
Just forgot to mention - I'm about to head off on vacation for the weekend so I won't be replying to this again (unless it explodes in that time or something, which I hope it doesn't). Just in case anyone worried there was a sulky ulterior motive or something - I'm just heading to the beach. :)
I have seen far to much character and ship bashing as far as K/S goes, but I also think that you're looking in the wrong place for it with this post. It was essentially side discussion about the upswing of A/R fic as part of broader fandom trend. To say that these few comments dismiss the bulk of your writing does take things beyond what was actually said I think. You aren't required to take my word for it, but a large part of why I'm even replying today is that I do talk to and like most of the people involved with this and don't see any evidence of malicious doings in what they were saying either.
Oddly enough, I'm also out on vacation, but please feel free to clarify if you think I've taken anything you've said out of context. :)
Apparently I should have used examples instead of going for the short version. When I was talking about being dismissive I was mostly referring to the fact that whenever you refer to "the fandom" you seem to qualify that as being Roslin/Adama shippers, Kara/Lee shippers and Katee fans. Since that excludes a good number of people it does feel slightly dismissive. I know now that wasn't your intention but I can see why Lyssie reacted the way she did. The internet is tone deaf sometimes things get lost in translation a little.
Just because using something someone has said out of context is ridiculous doesn't mean people won't use it to further their agenda.(Pick a tabloid any tabloid)I'm not saying you shouldn't discuss trends, its just whenever you attach an opinion or a an action to a large group of people your highly likely to offend someone.
Judith Martin has a saying that fits situations like this; "don't take offense where none is intended." If you wanted Kara/Sam shippers to be "represented" in beccatoria's discussion, why not just post a comment there? She did specifically ask for input. No one is obligated to be an expert in all aspects of fandom. The last time you chatted about fandom with someone, can you honestly say you gave "equal time" to A/R shippers, Lee/Dee shippers, slashers, femmeslashers, Kara/Roslin shippers, Lee/Helo shippers, Cally/Boomer shippers (not making that up!) anti-shippers, non-shippers... you get the idea? So, were you oppressing all those people by not talking about them? Probably not, because it would be completely impossible to give equal attention to every possible subgroup every time you make a post.
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And my answer to statements like that is usually, "If you want a 30,000 word Doc Cottle/Baltar AU epic that takes place at King Arthur's Court, by all means get writing it. I'll probably read it if it's good."
Although I do have to say that BSG seems balkanized in ways I never experienced in X-Files fandom. Now, granted, in XF fandom, 90% of fans are Mulder/Scully fans so it makes things easier and more cohesive(plus having way fewer characters on the show), but still, I found it very interesting to see the difference between
Wait, what was the original issue? tl:dr!
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*A/R fan goes to corner and cringes*
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Also, write MOAR FIC PLZ.
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The discussion about the A/R fic production in that post was more to do with the way they are the group of fans that has continued to produce the most quite possibly because they are one of the most satisfied groups of fans in terms of the finale. Obviously that is a broad statement but I think the overwhelming popularity of the ship on
I'm also guessing that you're referring to the fact that there are still a fair number of Kara/Sam (among other) stories being produced. This is true and perhaps the discussion was remiss in not mentioning that - perhaps for similar reasons to the A/R shippers - K/S shippers were generally fairly surprised and pleased with at least that aspect of the finale. Again I am making broad statements that obviously aren't going to reflect everyone's response and also I am not really present in most of the K/S scene (though again, see original disclaimer that fic is not my area of expertise).
Ultimately, the point of that post, before discussion dragged off into other areas, was that fan production, with certain exceptions, seems to have slowed down more rapidly than I have seen in other closed canon fandoms and I was wondering whether that had to do with the wide levels of unhappiness with the finale within the LJ community.
I do still stand by the basic idea that A/R stories are the most prolific currently. I also think that if anyone in the discussion on my journal said that no one was producing anything but A/R fiction it was almost certainly supposed to be taken as indicative of a trend rather than some literal decree. If you are instead responding to the negative tone in parts of the discussion then I'm happy to admit that yes, there was venting and a lot of frustration once the topic was brought up. I will say that I see two subtle distinctions of issue here - talking about A/R and its levels of production in fandom and why that might be / frustration at the way A/R was portrayed in 4.5 in general. The two issues bled into each other because there is a lot of overlap and I also think that frustration is a very reasonable response to A/R in 4.5 and something worth discussing/being allowed to vent about. (Note: I have no idea what your views on A/R are, you may love it or dislike it as much as I do, I'm simply trying to be comprehensive in my response as I feel responsible for this post and would like to defuse the situation, and the best way I know how to do that is to be honest and, hopefully, informative.)
If this was in response to the discussion on my journal, I admit to being both worried and confused that you seem so upset by it.
If this was not in response to the discussion on my journal, I apologise.
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Hell, I don't go around feedbacking (or reading) pairings I dislike.
ALSO. Because XF has been around so long, it's possible a lot of people are at the point of "Yay, fic!" and pounce upon everything and devour it.
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And I am certainly not the only one still producing fic (I'm sure the femslashers would be confused to find out they're being labeled A/R shippers).
Sure, the wireless is full of it more than everything else, because they've been on top for months and months. And before that, it was Kara/Lee. I don't exactly see how there's any difference. We just traded one OTP What Ate Fandom for another.
A lot of my thoughts on the finale are entirely depressing--for instance, if I think about the fact that the end-point for every major female character was death, I start kicking things. Writing fic is less painful and far more cathartic.
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eta: I'm trying to get my piece in for the BSG fslash challenge. ack. *makes self write*
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And the K/S output has been pretty fantastic lately in proportion, so yeah the point's taken. All I can think of there is that I just expect the total to be a lot less generally since there's fewer writers. Much as I'm grateful for the amazing ones we do have. :) Since I tend to skim broadly through fic communities, I'm sure there are some great places that I just don't follow with high output too.
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I know for my part, Becca's post struck a cord because I have noticed that collecting Gnews posts has become much easier since there's been such a drop-off of meta. Which is not to say that what there is isn't wonderful and appreciated - but it was a little distressing to hear that this isn't the way things normally go with a closed canon. It's my first fandom so I had no idea. So it's not so much feeling that the fandom has died as fearing that it might soon. And I'm not ready yet! I just got back, dammit!
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And I find it interesting that it switched and interesting that this is the one now eating fandom and interesting that pretty much alone of all the other areas of fandom it's not suffering from post-finale atrophication. I apologise if you feel I wrongly left out Kara/Sam in this, as I said, the reason is that I wasn't focusing on fic and the people commenting had some strong feelings about this particular area of fic as very eloquently expressed by
I disagree that this is somehow marginalising your production just because some people chose to discuss a different issue, which is as much about WHY A/R remains so popular despite many questionable choices in the second half of S4.
I am completely confused as to why you'd read something that's clearly talking about the large production levels of one area of fandom and the gender politics therein and read into it a completely absolute assertion that everyone else has shut up. It's about large trends and I still stand by my assertion that A/R is trending up under fairly unusual broad fandom circumstances.
It if helps, I am an actual Kara/Sam SHIPPER and am still producing both occasional fic (nearly always gen, and I have never been a huge writer of it anyway) and video content myself. In fact my post-finale epic vid project had among its goals to showcase aspects of the K/S relationship and I have a Sam, Kara/Sam music vid I'm going to be making (I think it's third on my vidding waiting list currently). So...I'm not here ignoring or unaware of the relationship.
I just think it's valid to hold discussions that aren't really about it, marginalising it or glorifying it, either. It's great that it's still a vital part of fandom. BELIEVE ME I'm happy about that, as I said in my original comment, I actually think that perhaps one of the reasons K/S hasn't been as badly affected is because like A/R (although fortunately not like it in the genderfail aspect), K/S were one of the few people to get an ending the fans were, more-or-less, content with, and yes, that is an interesting discussion to have too. But as I also said, there were two discussions with some overlap going on in that entry. The generic, non-specific, mostly vid-focused discussion about fan production, and then the personal-feelings-fuelled, disappointed-with, (these-days-)anti-A/R shipper discussion about why it's still so popular.
It was about my friends feelings about Laura Roslin. Not their dismissal of Kara and Sam. The statement that no one was producing anything was clearly hyperbolic and again, tied into the upset pertaining to Laura's treatment. So unless it's offensive to ever have a discussion that doesn't mention all aspects of fandom in perfect equality, I'm again, sorry you were offended but think that you're taking the discussion out of context.
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Perhaps this is part of why I am so confused by the sudden assumption that I'm marginalising it and ignoring it.
As I said above, it was ignored in my post because my post was mainly about vidding and then there was the overlapping and related topic of A/R itself because I have a number of huge Laura Roslin fans and disgruntled ex-A/R shippers on my flist. The discussion became a safe place to talk about their profound disappointment with the storyline and confusion on the way others embraced it.
It was ABOUT that, it wasn't NOT about K/S.
I seriously doubt we'd be happy in a world where every fandom discussion had to develop in such a way as to provide perfect equality to all aspects of every fandom.
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Personally, I mentioned it because I have noticed an upswing in A/R production that isn't matched in the larger fandom. And this isn't necessarily the entire truth, but also something I notice more now since I was generally unhappy with that storyline and am baffled by most of A/R in general. So, yes, it's a simplification on my part because of personal blinders, but also never meant to be about K/S or any other fic community and certainly not about marginalizing them. I don't think mentioning or having a discussion about the elevation of one pairing in the fandom takes away from all other pairings, not A/R or when it was K/L in the spotlight. I'm extremely grateful for all of the wonderful K/S writers since it IS such a small of the fandom and the group that got me into this whole thing anyway.
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I can think of another instance that this happened towards the end/finale of a series (ok, so season eight wasn't the entire end, but it put the kibosh on one era). Stargate: SG-1. Atthe close of season eight, there was quite a lot of new, and incredibly bad, fic.
Not that the Sam/Jack section was hurting for bad fic before then. But it seemed like the good stuff had slowed to a trickle, and therefore, the bad stuff swamped everything.
Me, I'm of two minds.
On the one hand, I sort of wish there was that sort of volume in Kara/Sam (or Sam Carter/Kara Thrace or any of the femslash pairings, for that matter). Even if it meant wading through the drek of fluffy, awful babyfic and "Sam Claims Kara" near-rape fic.
On the other, I can live without that.
....still on another, I have entirely lost the thread of what I'd started to say. *facepalm*
And I find it interesting that it switched and interesting that this is the one now eating fandom and interesting that pretty much alone of all the other areas of fandom it's not suffering from post-finale atrophication.
I think femslash production is actually UP since the show ended, but the femslashers have never needed the confirmation of canon (and never expected it)--
I think the Roslin/Adama production is up precisely because it was acknowledged as canon--sure, you had a lot of people who shipped it beforehand, and some casual shippers. But there's still a LOT of people who do not ship non-canon. With it canon, that section are exploding with fic.
And unfortunately, the more fic you have, the easier it is to find bad fic. This is true fandom-wide (just ask the Kara/Lee shippers who were complaining about a year and a half ago about where all the good fic had gone).
Now. The Kara/Lee fic has been steadily declining for over a year due to lack of interaction on-screen. Kara's end sort of kicked some of them back into gear, but it's really hard to recover from Ron stringing them along to no purpose. (now I expect an immense cavalcade of fic. sigh)
There's probably another thesis in there, somewhere, relating to canon's closure and the... domesticity? of that closure in regards to whether people are writing further fic on their favorite pairing (I think it applies to canon as it was being produced, as well. Look at how Athena/Helo production dropped sharply once they weren't a focal point of the narrative--that's an observation, not actual statistics and data, though)
In closing, be glad you didn't name the pairing something ridiculous, like Sparky.
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I think Katee would have punched Ron.
I can't see Kara doing that for Sam, either.
As for the closing of canon, I think... I think a lot of it really has to do with the fact that Ron's ending was, in some ways, utter crap.
For me, of course, it just produces crack ideas and etc. And I know Rose has had two massive post-settlement fics.
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Now I need two.
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Yes. Or at the very least, dropped a few f-bombs in his general direction. WHY DIDN'T MARY PUNCH RON, LYSSIE? D:
I can't see Kara doing that for Sam, either.
No, and while I probably would have liked it at first? If that had been the sum total of her final arc I'd be furious.
... Although, even trying to imagine it, with any man, is sort of hilarious.
I've talked to some people who even liked the ending and still say they've lost the urge to write or even read about the characters who've died, because their stories are finished. So maybe it's also that the end was so ... there was nowhere to go from it, even for the characters who lived.
Clearly I just need to jump on the afterlife fic wagon. ;)
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If that had been the sum total of her final arc I'd be furious.
Yup. And I am furious about it, for Roslin, for Caprica, for Ellen... the list goes on, unfortunately. :/
For Felix Gaeta, who isn't even getting his backstory on the damned dvds (dead Eights or not).
Clearly I just need to jump on the afterlife fic wagon. ;)
OBVIOUSLY.
(also, yes. Stories ended, and there was... no place to add more?)
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But really, I'm not sure this comment has much to do with the original post which - despite the context you have put it into with this post - was never really about which parts of fandom were trending up or down. It was about how fandom as a whole, and from my observations, vidding in particular, was slowing at a rate faster than previous fandoms had after the end of canon, regardless of any specific uptick in any sub-sections of fandom. It was also not really about quality vs quantity, just straight up broad-based quantity.
So yeah, "K/S is trending up because the finale canonised it," is a great and useful observation. But I don't feel it negates any of the rest of the discussion about fandom in general since the discussion I was trying to have is about something that's true regardless of whether K/S is trending up or down? Even though I'm glad it's trending up? Or is at least stable?
As a subthread of that discussion, we started talking about A/R fic production and how the increase in that suggested a lot of fandom wasn't bothered by the things we were bothered by. I've actually gone back to check the post for the sake of clarity and of the 45 comments there about 9 or so of them touch on A/R one way or the other while the rest are primarily about vidding or other areas of production. Of those 9, I cannot actually find any of them talking about how A/R are the only people still making stuff, all I can find is various statements about how A/R are monolithically HUGE in fandom right now. So I'm actually uncertain as to which bit you even found upsetting.
Finally one thing which might not have been clear from the post is that while I do not want fandom to die, I wasn't actually desperately asking other people to fix this for me and make more. I agree with all the posters above that the best thing to do in that situation is get out there and fix it yourself and while it makes me sad, my response to my perception that fandom is slowly dying is to be, well, productive about it.
But I did find it interesting, a little sad, and wondered if anyone else had noticed it too. Hence, the post.
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I do wonder if you've actually read through the post since I a) say at the start that since I'm not so aware of fic issues, I'm mostly bringing to the discussion my knowledge of vids and b) A/R discussion comprises less than a quarter of the comments, is clearly a sub-discussion that someone started by, you know, as mentioned above commenting and bringing that discussion to the table, and c) I still can't actually FIND anyone saying that no one is making anything but A/R. All I can find are various statements saying that there IS a crapload of A/R and various people's feelings on that. And, well...there's a crapload of A/R.
I think using a broad statement as ammunition is pretty ridiculous when the person acknowledges it's a broad statement because they want to talk about broad trends, despite statistical anomalies, however wonderful and creative those anomalies might be (and in view of wider fandom, even the monolithic A/R is an anomaly, if you were about to assume I was somehow dismissing one of my own favourite ships again).
Discussing broad trends is absolutely a valid thing to do. And I imagine you'd probably be pretty annoyed if you were having a dicussion about Kara/Sam in your journal and a bunch of Laura/Lee shippers took offence because you started comparing/contrasting with Kara/Lee.
Anyway, I'm about to go on vacation so...yeah.
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Oddly enough, I'm also out on vacation, but please feel free to clarify if you think I've taken anything you've said out of context. :)
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Just because using something someone has said out of context is ridiculous doesn't mean people won't use it to further their agenda.(Pick a tabloid any tabloid)I'm not saying you shouldn't discuss trends, its just whenever you attach an opinion or a an action to a large group of people your highly likely to offend someone.
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