Thought on Anders and Kara...

[lyssie]

Which will probably be spoilery... For at least the first three eps of season four

Anders is programed to love Kara.

That's a reading/meta/commentary I've seen from fans of all stripes. K/L shippers, K/S shippers, Anders fans, whomever. I've seen it implicit and explicit in fic, as though it's the word of God.

And I don't believe it's true. Furthermore, I think that the very idea that Sam has to be programed to love Kara is one of the most insulting and misogynistic statements ever.

Seriously. If you're a strong, independent, screwed-up woman, the only way a man will love you is if he's programed to?

How fucking insulting.

And for those who want to remind me that Lee loves her, yes. Yes he does. With reservations. He'd prefer Kara to be not a screw-up, though. So I'm not sure that's any nicer.

Comments

[darth-hunter.livejournal.com]

AGREED!!

[amazingly-shiny.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with you.

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

eeek, I really want to read - how spoilery beyond the first three eps?

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Rambling is good.

I don't know if I have much thoughts on the four as a whole (or the fifth). I just...

Programed to love, no.

That's been one of the baseline things ABOUT Boomer and Athena and Caprica: that they're not programed, that they're finding this love and hatred on their own without needing something inside telling them that.

Even D'Anna, who wanted something different, isn't programed. And Leoben. He's not just wetware.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Er, not very. And it's actually really short.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

AHAHAH. I am so not helpful. It's actually not spoilery, I don't think. I was just uncertain when I originally posted. (I might need food, too)

[lizardbeth-j.livejournal.com]

True, although my problem with that has always been HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE? I mean when you start thinking about the logistics of it, how can that happen? He was stuck on Caprica (he very nearly was nuked into oblivion), and Kara went back for the Arrow and happened to cross his path. And yeah, She has the special destiny and all, but for him to be *programmed* to love her, there would have had to be awareness that they would cross paths (oh, and she would love him back, because his loving her on its own doesn't actually accomplish anything).

At most I could allow that ONCE THEY WERE TOGETHER, his FF-sense wanted to keep her safe/stay close to her, because it knew she was important in some fashion (sort of like Leoben, but less conscious, I guess). But otherwise you have to wonder who/what the hell would program a possibility of such an incredibly UNLIKELY thing actually coming to pass. Unless it was "god" in which case it's not really 'programming' at all, and is pretty much just destiny.

Kind of hasty, and hopefully sense-making....

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I imagine it's very important. As I noted in a recent Boomer fic (and I've seen this elsewhere), there are now individuals in a society built on conformity. Caprica, Boomer, Athena, Leoben (to some extent, though I wonder how much of his line is the same given we've never seen more than one), Gina, D'Anna, and this new Six are all different people. They share some memories and traits, but they've grown beyond that.

Whereas, I'd say all Cavils are the same. Doral and Simon, too.

Oh, definitely. That was actually what produces the "OMGWTF" reaction. It's insulting.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I don't know if it's that so much as "Starbuck's such a crazy bitch, how can anyone love her/put up with her without being programed?"

[chev-y.livejournal.com]

agh! Laura sent her back to NC! Laura's the final Cylon! j/k

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

HAHAHAHAHAH.

But. THEY HAVE A PLAN. So they KNEW Kara would fall for his rogueish charm and ability to frak her senseless...

[chev-y.livejournal.com]

You're right. I'll rescind my comment and remove it. :)

[cynthia-arrow.livejournal.com]

Honestly, that sounds crazy. And boring. And you've heard it out of K/S shippers, too? bluh.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

BUT TRUE LOVE IS MEANT TO BEEEEeeeee.

Yeah, no.

Leoben from Ragnar! I knew we'd seen a different one, at some point, but couldn't remember.

I think it is related--ie, individuals recognize the need for individuality in others (how Ghost in the Shell).

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I have, yup. It caused much head-scratching and "shut up and get out of my shippage" ranting at the cat.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Not that, y'know, I don't think what you said isn't part of it, though.

It's just, I've seen it in more than one place, some of them places where I wouldn't expect it.

[lizardbeth-j.livejournal.com]

The only entity that can foresee and plan all that IS GOD. Therefore, Sam and Kara are destined. The end.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;P

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

I've seen it implicit and explicit in fic,

Ah. *hides*

Well, mine wasn't so much that he was programmed to love her but that he was struggling with the idea that he was and decided it didn't matter anyway. While I agree with you that there's a lot wrong with the assumption that he must be, it wouldn't totally kill it for me if Ron decreed that he was, because the emotions are just as real to him. (Though I would be annoyed.) But it's noteable that Trucco gave a bunch of reasons for Sam staying with Kara and none of them had to do with programming.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

DESTINY.

Yeah.

COIN TOSS.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Nah, there've been a good three or four I've skimmed and I imagine there's even more out there.

I liked Trucco's reasons, since they echo the deleted UB scene with Tigh.

[daera23.livejournal.com]

if Sam is programed then it negates that the Five are different and special

[darth-hunter.livejournal.com]

I never read anything about the Final Four being born, but I heard from an interview that they were 'fundamentally different' or something of the sort, which does leave the possibility that he was programmed into loving Kara, no matter how full of shit it may be.

[rose-griffes.livejournal.com]

Um... I've used it in fic and thought about it. Mostly because I think Sam would wonder it about himself after he knew he was a cylon. Not that she's evil or unworthy, but Kara is hard to live with. (I'm guessing he's probably okay with that *g*) Doesn't mean I'm positive that he is programmed, though.

If he were actually programmed to love her, it would be because Kara Thrace has a destiny that the cylons have an interest in, not because she has to have a man made to love her in spite of her flaws.

Leoben, too... I could be persuaded that he's programmed to love her because of her Super!Special!Destiny. *shrugs* YMMV, though.

That's a reading/meta/commentary I've seen from fans of all stripes. K/L shippers, K/S shippers, Anders fans, whomever. I've seen it implicit and explicit in fic, as though it's the word of God.

Hm, I guess I haven't poked around enough outside my f'list on LJ to see it everywhere. Since it doesn't irritate me, I'd be less likely to notice it anyway. Speculation like this is fun for me rather than annoying, though, so I'll stop rambling in your LJ about it.


Okay, I lied--one more thing. If someone were to say that the only reason Sam loves her is because of programming and that Lee's love is better because he's not programmed, I would disagree. Clearly the cylons are more subtle than that--they have some degree of autonomy, though we don't know exactly where that line is. But saying that Sam has an interest in Kara that connects to his cylon identity--yeah, that I could accept.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

He says some weird crap. Whatever it is is enough for Adama to start calling him on his silicon pathways and stuff (a concept never touched on again. Neither is the radiation thing)

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Watch Ghost in the Shell...?

*giggles at both faces*

The sad thing is, I wasn't even thinking about the concepts in the larger picture--

Though, man, now I want to watch those scenes again, because Leoben isn't all that squirrely, but it's enough to trip Dad's brain. And, dude, I always wondered how it was so easy for him to assume that the Cylons were human.

[sabaceanbabe.livejournal.com]

Bzuh?

I... don't think I've seen that anywhere, but then again, I don't venture out much into the larger BSG world anymore. They scare me. ;)

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

We can fanwank it into being true. Kinda like you can fanwank Adam X into being the third Summers brother.

[pataka02.livejournal.com]

Hee! Your icon makes me happy.

[chev-y.livejournal.com]

Oh, I like this train of thought. I'm hopping on your bandwagon. :-)

[lizardbeth-j.livejournal.com]

now if only we can get RON to hop on this cozy, roomy bandwagon with us!

(and given he's penning the finale RIGHT NOW, we should possibly think VERY HARD in his general direction....)

[chev-y.livejournal.com]

I'll light the candles and start chanting now. lol ;p

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I think what it boils down to is--

If Sam is programed to love her, he has no say in loving her. No free will. It makes him nothing more than a walking vibrator.

And for Sam to break his programing, he has to walk away from Kara and not love her.

[rose-griffes.livejournal.com]

And for Sam to break his programing, he has to walk away from Kara and not love her.

I would actually agree with this if that's all that he's programmed to do. And yes, it would make me cranky--mosty because it reduces all his previous storyline to nothing. I don't think that being Mr. Thrace is all there is to Sam. When I say possibly programmed to love Kara, it might one piece of who he is, but not all. But are the people using the programming idea in meta and fic actually going so far as to say that Sam is the equivalent of a walking vibrator? I don't know what you've run across elsewhere but I'm hoping (possibly I'm just being wildly optimistic and naive) that it's just an interesting question to consider.

Related to that, though: Sharon Agathon hasn't gone against whatever piece of her was programmed to 'love' Helo, whether that was specifically directed at him, or at reproduction, or whatever it was. But the other cylon still consider her to be a traitor. IMO, Sam doesn't have to end a relationship with Kara to prove he's autonomous.

Three of the Dylan four (Sam, Saul, Tory) have a strong connection to someone with power, influence or other noteable qualities (special destiny, way to Earth). That could be something inherent to their nature as cylons, to be drawn to those who have a big role to play in humanity's survival... but how that plays out is certainly a matter of choice. Sam could've found ways to stay close to Kara without becoming her lover, then husband.

I'm intrigued by the questions about cylons and programming, and I don't think the show is going to give us many answers, so I speculate wildly. which is fun for me but possibly boring for you. oops